Job Discussion Forums

[Saiops]

[quote="daodejing"]So I was just reading a "horror story" and many posters were saying that teaching on a tourist visa is really bad.

Hmm tough to say. Default answer is not don't trust them unless you know them or others who are doing something of the same at their place.

You run the risk of them not paying you and you can do nothing about it if they do. So ask yourself, do you trust them enough to do it that? If not then seek employment elsewhere.

I have had teachers work for me in the past on Tourist visa but we were also in the process of changing it to a F or Z. SO if they aren't changing it then you are vulnerable, therefore, warned.

[Tsuris]

The thing to keep in mind is that mainland China is not a land of laws but, rather, a country with current-day sentimental and functional ties to its feudal past and of complex interpersonal relationships.

If the right person doesn’t want you here, it truly doesn’t matter whether you are working here legally with a Z-Visa or even with a Chinese Green Card. Some reason will be found for cancelling it, and you’ll be told to leave.

Although occasionally the police pursue foreigners who are working in China on anything other than a Z-Visa, in the same way they make an occasional show of cleaning up pirated DVDs and software, the truth is if no one with power (either directly or through his or her network of friends) has a grudge against you or wants you out of town, as a practical issue, it really doesn’t matter what kind of Visa you have.

Problems only typically arise if and when you enter the radar of those in power, for whatever reason. Then the fact that you are working here illegally simply becomes a convenient way for making you leave, but it would be naïve to think that a Z-Visa and a SAFEA contract offer any kind of genuine protection against fraud, deception, maltreatment, and corruption. They really don’t—not when push comes to shove.

It’s not easy for a school to acquire a license to hire foreign experts; it’s a very involved, costly, and time-consuming process, and, in many provinces, there are long waiting lists for it. Many, if not most, foreigners during their stay in China have worked for years at unlicensed schools with absolutely no problems whatsoever. Conversely, I know of many licensed and “legitimate” schools that are remarkably unscrupulous in their handling of foreign teachers, and they get away with it because they have strong relationships with the right people in government.

As for contracts, they do little more in China than provide a common starting ground for further, often impromptu, ongoing negotiations throughout the life of the contract. I’ve known several foreigners who have worked part-time for private schools with neither a contract nor a single problem, and others, with Z-Visas and SAFEA contracts, who have been terminated in the middle of their contracts for one reason or another (whether justified or not)—including one such foreigner who was doing a good job at a government university.* Obviously, the more favourable the conditions are at the beginning of the contract, the better off the foreign teacher is, usually. However, just because your contract states that, for example, you are entitled to a water cooler doesn’t mean you will find one when you arrive or that it will take any less than four weeks for you to finally get one, or that the one you eventually get is not 10-years old with a leak that provides you with a soothing indoor waterfall.

For the most part, it is neither the type of Visa one has nor the presence of a contract in force that determines or predicts the absence of problems in China. That is almost entirely accounted for by the sensibilities of the key people involved in the agreement (foreigners included). If the main people involved like you and want you to stay, you will be treated well and you will be safe from interference; if they don’t, it doesn’t matter as a practical issue what type of Visa you have or whether you have a contract or not.

A one-year residency permit obtained through a licensed school makes life in China more convenient, although not necessarily more predictable. If the OP can’t find a sponsor for a Z-Visa, then there will be someone in Shanghai who can help him buy a multi-entry, six-month F-Visa (business Visa), at a reasonable hong bao (red envelope) surcharge of course. My girlfriend lived in China for 2 years on six-month renewable F-Visas and worked “illegally” part-time for unlicensed schools during that entire time without a problem, and was treated 100% better than I was on a legal Z-Visa and with a contract in force, because the people she worked for were quite decent and well connected. On the other hand, I personally know of a foreigner who was living and working here on a 10-year Chinese Green Card, who was recently deported because he grew too big for his britches and he crossed the wrong people.

China is not a land of laws. It is a country that operates almost entirely from the top down on the basis of interpersonal relationships, and even where foreigners are concerned, that reality is a sword that cuts both ways.

PS. This in no way should be misconstrued to mean that I am advising foreign teachers to initially arrive in China for the purpose of working on anything but a Z-Visa. Although what you encounter may be far from what you expected, entering the country with a Z-Visa does at least guarantee that a job will be waiting for you. Once you are already in the country and are settled down and better networked, then the possibilities broaden geometrically and the lines separating what's legal and illegal begin to blur. Too many foreigners arrive in China on a tourist Visa at their own expense for what turns out to be nothing more than a glorified job interview.

*The foreigner in question was well qualified and living with the daughter of the university's vice president in unusually splendid campus housing. When the relationship ended badly, the foreigner was abruptly terminated. He was simply told that his department was "downsizing" and that he was the victim of budget cuts from Beijing. He was finally able to negotiate a 5,000 RMB settlement on the six months that were left on his contract. His Z-Visa was immediately downgraded to a 30-day tourist Visa, and, after months of being chased around by the police for working part-time on an L-Visa, he finally had to leave town. Meanwhile, at the very same locations he was fired from for working illegally, most of the foreign teachers were students from the same university working on X-Visas.

[arioch36]

Sharnac

[Sinobear]

Tsuris:

I agree with you 100% and think your post is worthy of its very own sticky.

Well done and cheers!

[Candoguy]

[Candoguy]

I've been told by schools that a 'work' visa isn't required for short summer school contracts. So, if someone doesn't have a degree and works during the summer on a 'tourist' visa is that OK?

[arioch36]

legally no, you can only work on a "work" (z) visa. "L" is for tourism.

Will you get caught? Who knows. If you caught, being told to leave has ben the punishment in the past. There have been more reports of PSB checking schools. Never heard of them checking summer schools, but this is 2008

I guess by law 99% of the laowai (and a good proportion of Chinese teachers perhaps) work at summer schools illegally. Never heard of any problems though

[Candoguy]

I just received this from English First:

We would like to invite you to participate in our Sponsored Teacher Training Program. The training programme is for the period commencing from June 21st 2008 and expiring on August 24th 2008.

During the development programme, you will be based in Shenzhen. You should have read, understood and agreed to abide by the Code of Conduct, Disciplinary Policy, Termination Policy, Work Manual, and Insurance terms as attached. These attachments form part of our Sponsorship Agreement. You will need to apply for an L visa before flying to China. Although the L visa is a tourist visa you can legally work as an intern for the duration of your stay.


So they're saying that it's legal to work on an L visa as long as you're classed as an intern. This is how they're getting around the problem of summer school teaching contracts.

[pest2]

[gaobidzi]

Take note Guys.

Contracts are the single most important thing in China. They are taken very seriously in law and by courts. The single best thing you can do is to get a contract checked by a Chinese lawyer as most are poorly written, by the company and in the companys favour of course.

Even if you are illegally working on an L visa, this does not negate both partys responsibility to the contract, they can not use this excuse to not pay you or threaten you etc, call their bluff because a Chinese company employing an alien will get into as much trouble as the alien will for doing so. The law deems that both Partys are responsible to understand Chinese law.

If they monster you about it then tell them how guilty you feel now that you understand how serious it is working in China without the right visa and feel it's the right thing to do that you and the company should go to the PSB and report the situation.

Watch for the reaction.

[gaobidzi]

[Tsuris]

According to the Foreign Teachers' Guide, the only real issue is whether one is earning income. If it's a volunteer position, then it doesn't matter if one is teaching on a tourist visa.

Check out Working on L- and F-visas.

[Lildeski]

A company I'm interviewing with says the teacher should come over on a tourist visa and then the school can change it to a working visa and that the school is capable of doing this. She says the school usually issues working visas but this year it is impossible so this is the way they do the visas. When I questioned her on this she said it is different in various areas of China. I asked if i would have to travel to hong kong to get it extended and she said no, that they would get me the legal working visa within a month. She kept repeating that it is illegal for the school to employ teachers without the working visa and that the school can get the paperwork. It seems legit...but I've read alot about not going on a tourist visa. Also, the company seems to offer a good contract but does pay in USD. What is the disadvantage of payment in USD?

THANKS!

[Tsuris]

Let me ask you a hypothetical question. Do you seriously expect a recruitment agency that is engaging in unscrupulous behaviours to openly admit that do you? Or do you think they might say instead "Oh, don't worry, this is the way we do it in this part of China!" If you believe that, then I have some beautiful beach front property in Tibet I can let you have at a great price (in fact, we're running a newbie special today and today only: 20% off the regular price).

Read carefully: DO NOT MOVE TO CHINA FOR THE PURPOSE OF EARNING INCOME WITHOUT A Z-VISA IN YOUR PASSPORT!!!

There are numerous reasons for this. If you have any questions, click on the link above for middlekingdomlife.com and learn why.

[Eyrick3]

I've heard you will get fined up to 500 RMB per day, up to 5000 RMB once you try to leave the country on an expired tourist visa. I've also heard they can detain you if it's too long after that.

Any good school will change your tourist visa over to work visa shortly after arrival.