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English-language doctorate programs?
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guangho



Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 476
Location: in transit

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:14 pm    Post subject: English-language doctorate programs? Reply with quote

Hiya,

Yes....a post on the Israel forum. Who'da thunk it?! So my question is this- are there English language doctorate programs in Israel, preferrably by American/Canadian/British/Aussie Unis? If so, post some links please!

Todah Rabah,
G
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guangho



Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 476
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So we're at 80 views at 0 replies. Come on lads...lasses....
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Henry_Cowell



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3351
Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why would an American or British university offer a Ph.D. program in English in Israel? For that matter, can you name an American or British university "in Israel"?
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guangho



Joined: 16 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ummm...thanks? You must get that a lot.

Also, why wouldn't a University offer English-language programs in a country where English is a universal L2?

Okay people...while Henry gets to work at that magical $100,000/year EFL job of his, can someone try, for the love of whatever you consider to be holy, to be constructive?
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Henry_Cowell



Joined: 27 May 2005
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Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because Israel already has some of the finest universities in the world? Because linguists and English scholars from all over the world already teach in Israeli universities?

Why not get a Ph.D. in English from an Israeli university?

http://www.biu.ac.il/HU/en/home/dept/lit-PhD.shtml

Take a look at the faculty. You could do a LOT worse in the U.S. itself. Laughing Cool Laughing

Or do you mean a Ph.D. in TESOL????
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guangho



Joined: 16 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the world was fair and perfect I would be off to TAU for a Ph.D.
But we don't live in a fair and perfect world- with British academic boycotts and the like (and related attitudes), I'm not sure that an Israeli Ph.D. would do much outside of Israel. Somebody should prove me wrong.
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Henry_Cowell



Joined: 27 May 2005
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Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guangho wrote:
I'm not sure that an Israeli Ph.D. would do much outside of Israel.

Why do you give the impression that you think Israel is a second-world or even third-world country? Why do you appear to think that there is not a significant portion of the Israeli academic community for whom English is L1 rather than L2?

And most importantly, why do you seem not to know that degree holders from Israeli universities teach in many of the world's top universities. A degree from an Israeli university is not the equivalent of a degree from a university in Nigeria, Thailand, Brazil, or the Philippines. Perhaps you can tell us why you think it is.

However, if you do indeed think that it is a better idea to obtain a graduate credential from an American institution such as the University of New England than from an Israeli institution such as Hebrew University, Tel Aviv University, Bar Ilan University, or The Technion -- by all means go for it.

Finally, what do you mean by "English language" Ph.D.? Literature? Linguistics? Rhetoric? "TESOL/TEFL"? Do you actually think that you'll find an American university offering any of these graduate fields in Israel? Why do you think that? In Israel, American branch campuses offer degrees in nursing, management, human resources, and other not-very-academic fields -- not "English language." Oh, and the University of Manchester offers a portion of a degree in "Hebrew Studies" in Israel.

The public universities in Israel are already in the top tier of worldwide schools of higher education. Why go lower? Would it be because of the lower standards of admission??

From http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:5dW2u-E5ftgJ:chronicle.com/che-data/articles.dir/art-44.dir/issue-15.dir/15a05901.htm+Israel+%22foreign+university%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us :

... Avishay Braverman, president of Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, is among those who oppose the foreign campuses. "Frankly, I don't see any need for these branches of foreign institutions. Most of them are institutions that sell worthless degrees and are on the lowest possible level," says Mr. Braverman, who serves as chairman of the University Presidents Committee, a panel made up of the chief executives of Israel's eight public universities.

"The existence of the branches is leading to a cheapening of academic degrees, a dangerous phenomenon" in a country whose economic future depends on the quality of its human capital, he adds. "If they want to receive certification, then it should be according to clear criteria that will probably be met by only a small number of them."

Mr. Braverman declined to identify any foreign branch institutions that he thought might or might not meet the standards being proposed. "But I've studied the subject very thoroughly," he says, "and what we're talking about is not a free market but a flea market."

Among the largest branch programs in Israel are those linked to the University of Manchester, in Britain, and two U.S. institutions, Clark University and New England College. However, many other programs are linked to little-known institutions, several of them based in Eastern Europe....


From http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/soe/cihe/newsletter/News21/text9.html :

... The bad news is that some of the branch campuses of foreign academic institutions offer quick degrees, with no attention whatsoever to academic standards, no basic facilities such as libraries, computers, etc., and a teaching staff whose qualifications are sometimes questionable. Other branches make a significant effort to meet standards while at the same time answering the needs of the population they serve. The 15,000 students who could not gain access to any of the "traditional" institutions of higher education are willing to pay a tuition almost twice as high as that charged by public higher education institutions because they want to get a degree without having to give up their full-time jobs or, in some cases, without having to devote themselves to hard intellectual work. They see the degree as a means for social mobility or simply as a way to further their careers, and they don't mind the lack of intellectual dialogue that is supposed to characterize any meaningful education at this level. It is important to stress that more than responding to an existing demand, these institutions have themselves created a new demand. The issue of accountability has not received the attention it deserves....
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guangho



Joined: 16 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more time- I am NOT objecting to the quality of Israeli Universities. As a matter of fact, I wrote that if this was a perfect world where merit rules over other considerations, I would be off to TAU in a heartbeat. I am merely saying, as a resident of the real world, that many people will not take an Israeli university education seriously due to THEIR prejudices. Israel can be full of Harvards (and sort of is- Technion is easily on par with MIT) and that still would not be good enough in certain quarters.
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Henry_Cowell



Joined: 27 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're going to be teaching in a serious department or school in the U.S., nobody will care about your credential from an Israeli institution.

Even in the UK, the so-called "boycott of Israeli universities" has lost steam. And the "boycott" never really included non-Israelis who had received degrees from Israeli universities.

If you're this paranoid and clueless, perhaps you should consider another country.
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guangho



Joined: 16 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Henry_Cowell wrote:


If you're this paranoid and clueless, perhaps you should consider another country.


What a paragon of wisdom and good will you are Henry.
http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/autboycott.html
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Henry_Cowell



Joined: 27 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you think you'll be interviewed and hired by a Palestinian, then you might indeed be asked tough questions about a degree conferred in Israel. Otherwise, you'll have no problems -- as can be inferred from the sources that you yourself just cited. Wink
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Stephen Jones



Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124

PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A degree from an Israeli university will cut you off from any job in the Gulf, which is precisely where postgraduate degrees are most appreciated.

Also, as Guangho pointed out, there are going to be plenty of employers who will wonder as to the value of a degree in English from a non-English speaking country.

If the OP is in Israel, then he would do best to look at distance degrees, unless he wants to work in a US university.
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Henry_Cowell



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huh?

Have you looked at the English and Linguistics faculties of the public universities in Israel, Stephen? What about them makes you think that even an Oxbridge college would hesitate to hire a graduate with the right credentials? Forget the Gulf, which is its own little insulated and isolated world.
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Stephen Jones



Joined: 21 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are being deliberately obtuse here Henry.

Guangho is talking about the market value of his degree. The Gulf might be "insulated and isolated" but it is the best paying market in EFL and present, and one where post-graduate degrees are appreciated. And the market value of an Israeli degree in the Gulf is less than zero.

The question is not whether I or guangho know the academic credentials of Israeli linguistic departments, but whether that knowledge is shared by the employer in Madrid or Mongolia.
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Henry_Cowell



Joined: 27 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please note that "guangho" has refused to say what degree he wants (except for the nebulous "English language") and where he wants to use it. But he wants to get it in Israel from an institution affiliated with the U.S, the UK, Australia, or another such country.

I repeat: There is absolutely no reason for an American or British university to offere graduate degree programs in Israel in "English language" studies. The Israeli universities do that quite well on their own, with native speakers of English well represented on all the faculties. The "worth" of such a degree from an Israeli university (outside most of the Islamic world) is on par with a similar degree from a university in the U.S., UK, Australia, or anywhere else. Why would it not be?

"guangho" has never mentioned the Gulf states. Only you have.
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