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Racism in Asia????????
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Which country provides the most and best opportunities for black EFL instructors?
Japan
33%
 33%  [ 2 ]
Hong Kong
50%
 50%  [ 3 ]
Taiwan
16%
 16%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 6

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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 11704
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 12:42 pm    Post subject: reverse racism Reply with quote

"Reverse Racism" is failry widely used to mean Racism directed against white folks. If you think Korea is bad take a trip to Nigeria !
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Roger



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stgeorge,
I was referring to my chosen host country, China. I could lament too if I was in the right mood, but I ain't, and am not gunning to be.
"Reverse racism' is the term others use when affirmative action takes a job or a study place away from them. You can extend it to mean any ethnicity-based exclusion or discrimination that victimises whites. That's what I had in mind - although I was depicting the rosier pictures of riding on top of a discriminatory attitude that in fact offered me an advantage.
I don't know, and don't quite believe that Japanese are so cosmopolitan as you make them out to be! A couple of months ago, I read about a Finn that has spent a coujple of decades living in Japan - obviously quite a feat. He is a perfedct Japanese speaker, and has even been elected in some capacity or other at some political level or other although he will never be Prime minister, of course!
He threw his weight behind a party in a legal tussle with some obnoxious bathhouse operator who consistenlty refuses to admit non-Japanese on grounds of "foreigners not knowing the high hygiene standards of us Japanese..." or something like this. If I recollect correctly, the court in an unprecedented turn-about, accepted the whites' charge and declared this practice as outlawed.
Besides, Koreans have been reported to suffer all manner of discrimination - proper names, schooling, residency rights, voting rights, etc. ALright, it is not an issue of "racism", but it is to do with ethnic profiling.
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jibbs



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 443

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one has mentioned Vietnam. I have not been there but have read on this site about people doing OK there. Korea isn't fun for many whites not to mention blacks, I feel sorry for Koreans. Anyway Vietnam might be worth at least some inquiry.... good luck
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Roger



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 12:07 am    Post subject: Vietnam, and other countries in Asia... Reply with quote

Vietnam:
I must say the Vietnamese are one of the most linguistically-gifted people in Asia. Pity they have had to endure a period of obscurantism and oppression!
In general, they are in my experience rather hospitable. Many are Buddhists, some are Christians. The economic liberalisation favours returning Vietnamese who hail from anglophone countries as well as from France, Germany - all of whom speak their former host country's official language well! Thus, you can survive well speaking Mandarin (in the North), Russian (not a language I know, but many Vietnamese do), French, German (I met hoteliers in Hanoi that could not speak English but German!) and so on.
I guess, teaching English would be fun there, though I have no first-hand experience!
On the downside, Vietnam is still rather backward. Its transport system is badly in need of a major injection of funds. The country hasn't got the money to import what it needs!
And, in true socialist fashion (in force in China until 1996 too!), foreigners are offically ripped off every time they purchase a ticket! You have to pay double or more for the same bad service that Vietnamese buy too. It is irksome and discriminatory, and what's more, it generates that kind of reflex so prevalent among wily characters - if the government does it, then any streetwise hawker, hooker and what not will charge you five times the normal price!
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cafebleu



Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 404

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:12 am    Post subject: You can work in Japan deshell32 Reply with quote

Hello again and thanks for your private message, deshell32. I know I have already addressed racial issues on a different thread but I would like to point out some positive things for you if you come to Japan.

I believe (correct me if I am wrong anyone) that the big chain schools would have no reservations about employing black teachers. I have never worked for Nova, Aeon, Geos, etc but I have heard less than positive observations on these kinds of schools. However, it probably comes down to who is in charge of the different branches. I am sorry I can`t give you any information on which is the best in Kyushu where I live. But if you post asking for information on that kind of topic here and at gaijinpot.com I think some people will be happy to tell you. You could definitely work at an eikaiwa school anywhere in Japan, having had the experience of teaching in Asia and given your university qualifications.

However, maybe working at a big chain school is not for you. I don`t know what kind of school you are working at in Korea but from what I hear about Korea, maybe the big chain schools here are superior. Interac is basically a front company for the Mormon Church, although I am not saying that Interac hides its affiliation with the Mormon Church.

I hope the Mormon Church has moved on from the period of time when it taught hidden `sacred teachings` on the inferiority of the black peoples. Maybe I am going to get some badmouthing from Mormons for saying that but note I talk about a period of time before. How do I know? My best friend at that time was a Mormon.

Most likely the Mormon Church does not teach that anymore but if you look at some of Interac`s advertisements for Assistant Language Teachers in elementary/junior high/high schools, you will see that you will be expected to work long hours for the base salary. I would never work as an ALT for that kind of money. I work in an eikaiwa for that kind of money but the hours are not so long.

Currently in Japan there are well meaning teachers, especially in elementary school, who try to `internationalise` their students. It is an uphill battle, of course, and mostly a token one. Yet I am not cynical about their efforts as you will meet teachers who are concerned about their students` inability to engage in discussion about the world outside Japan or see foreigners as anything but amusing or strange `gaijin`.

Unlike Korean`s tendency towards aggressive, in your face racism (I have heard about this from quite a few people, not just those on chatboards), the Japanese form is more infuriatingly patronising. Yet you will be able to live with it, rude as it can be in a different way.

I find it weird as a respectable bill paying, tax paying, working professional to be treated in Japan as if I cannot be trusted - eg I need a Japanese person to `guarantee` I will pay my rent and won`t trash my rental house or apartment. Given your more blatant experience of racism in Korea, you will find the Japanese treatment more trivial and foolish. However, be prepared for experiences such as that of the angry black man who started the `Discrimination in Housing` thread at gaijinpot.com. It`s in the Living Forums.

However, in a way, maybe it is good for whites to experience this kind of patronsing, foolish, insular racism. After all, it is similar to the racism of a certain kind of white person who won`t attack a black person in the street but will stereotype black people and treat them as if somehow they don`t have the same status as a white person by trivialising their abilities and questioning their ethical and moral standards.
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stgeorge



Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm I can't see why it would be called reverse racism unless you accept only white people can be racist. I think it's a phrase dreamt up by America's politically correct mass media. I don't think it's widely used outside America, nor is the term "affirmative action".

Most Koreans are racists, not "reverse racists". Laughing
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Roger



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I concur with you - racism is NOT a white man's thing, it is human, you find it in just about every country. However, "racism" is a fuzzy term that was concocted when nationalism began rearing its ugly head. Suddenly, other countries were seen to be peopled by natives of different skin colours, different eye shapes, different body hair configurations. Then, someone began taking measures of craniums, chests, and what not.

There is probably no such a thing as "race". Perhaps, a better term would be "tribalism". Look at the former South Africa!

But, precisely for this reason, political correctness "had" to be invented to right wrongs committed by those in power, and those in power happened to be predominantly-white. I am not a true adherent of political correctness. ANd, affirmative action in the USA seems to be backfiring ever more! You cannot eliminate past errors by committing new mistakes!

Still, nationalism in Asia often combines with this time-worn concept of "racial pureness", and sometimes it gives you a condescending head-start in a crowd of locals. Not that I condone this at all - it is part of life!
To me, it sometimes is compensation for real discrimination - of which we all are occasional vicdtims. Even my overseas-born "Chinese" friends complain bitterly about their local brethren! Again, they too enjoy special privileges, and more protection, owing to the fact that they can be taken care of by another country!
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pistonear



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Deshell,
Racism, tribalism, and ethnic superiority is a fairly new concept. In the ancient world Greek students came to Egypt/Khem(Blacklands) to learn from their African students. They learned the theories of ancient Egypt and wrote them down. When they left they took the knowledge their teachers had given them.
Racism has done some damage to everyone. 100 million Africans, Six million Israelites, Japenese locked in camps during the war, Korean women raped by Japanese soldiers, Kurds gased by their own president. People killing, hurting and damaging the spirits of other human beings.
Now it continues in economic and social forms, its less loud, less open, but Racism, Sexism, Homophobia, all these stupid divisions. Every religion or philosophy, teaches the golden rule. Do no Harm!
Deshell keep positivity wrapped around you like a shield, better yet ride positivity like its a horse. The rider has power over everything that is beneath him. Continue to show that you are qualified, capable and confident. The rest of the world has some catching up to do! Until then head up, chest out! M
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12023
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:33 am    Post subject: Tribalism's new? Reply with quote

Dear pistonear ( interesting user name ),
Have to disagree about racism, tribalism and ethnic superiority being " fairly new concepts ". The very word, " tribalism " gives a clue as to what kind of ( relatively speaking ) more " primitive " society it springs from. The ancient Greeks most definitely ( and with some good reasons ) considered themselves " superior " to other races,and nations - they coined the word we now have in English, " barbarian ", from the fact that the language of all those other guys sounded like so much nonsense ( i.e. " bar, bar, bar, etc. ). The Romans were no slouches at racial superiority, either, nor the Chinese, Japanese and Egyptians. How many countries, either back then or now, do you think had/have as their motto: " We're Number Two! "? This is not to say that some people, either then or now, were/are unwilling to learn from others. But I'm afraid a study of history - and one very good, fairly concise ( considering the subject matter ) book for that which I'd recommend is: " History of the World " by J.M. Roberts:

http://www.gtexts.com/worthreading/roberts.html

will all too often show that these jingoist tendencies have been around for awfully long time.
Regards,
John
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arju



Joined: 18 Feb 2003
Posts: 58
Location: h.k

PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2003 4:05 am    Post subject: racism Reply with quote

hi to all previous writers... are we confusing the word racism when we are speaking of culturalism ie each culture thinks it is the height of civilisation and can draw negative conclusions based on how other cultures do things differently and thus conclude the difference is a weak point that gives them a superior feeling. All humans are competing for resources and our competitiveness can lead us to regard other ways of doing things as less important than our own. I currently work in asia and see the same mindset that western countries are often lableled with. A few weeks ago a chinese nba player accused a african american NBA player of racism which came as a shock for the african american who naturally assumed that racism is directed by whites against his physical appearnce.
The use off racism wont cover people of similar racil origin who have differing cultural views eg look at the mess of the former yugoslavia the fighting was cultural identity formed through religion not racial ethnic cleansing was realy just competitoin between religions.
enjoy the debate all ideas are of value
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12023
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2003 5:35 am    Post subject: What's in a name? Reply with quote

Dear arju,
I don't think it really matters all that much what term is used: racism, tribalism, culturalism, ethnicism, sexism, jingoism, ageism, etc. All these terms, it seems to me, are simply specific names for different prejudices. The underlying concept in every case is, I'd say, the same:
" I and those like me ( in whatever respect[s] ) are better than you and those like you ( ditto ). "
Many people, unfortunately, need to base their sense of self-worth on a basis of their superiority to others who are ( somehow ) " different ". Insecurity and fear are, most probably, the major causes and I'm afraid all those " isms " are going to be around for a while.
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psychedelic



Joined: 11 Feb 2003
Posts: 167
Location: China

PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2003 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stgeorge,
I agree..Gor-eee-uggghhhh!!!! is the worst!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Extremely backwards..largely a nation of immature,strange,nervous,,arrogant,ill-mannered,insecure,oversensitive/overemotional,xenophobic,hick,nationalistic i****s. I've been to Japan many times..used to live in Taiwan for sixteen months..very different.
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Capergirl



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 1232
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:29 pm    Post subject: Racism in Asia Reply with quote

I can only speak about my own experiences on the topic. I've taught in South Korea and Taiwan and found the majority of people in both places to be quite racist. White skin is coveted...the lighter the better. My students would tease one another if they were darker skinned than the others or tanned from the sun, calling each other "black"--a terrible insult as far as they were concerned. They told me that dark skin was a sign of a low-class field worker. One day in Taiwan, I met a very dark-skinned man from the U.S. and chatted with him in the street. The looks I received from the locals should have turned me to stone, and afterwards, a couple of Taiwanese people literally came up to me asking me why I was talking to him! (I did not even know them but they were worried about my "image"...go figure.) However, even caucasian people are likely to encounter racism in Asia. After the economic crash in Korea (1998) and the whole IMF deal, I was spit on several times, taxis would not stop for me, and some clerks would not serve me.

My point is this....I don't think any of the countries named above is going to be better than the other. If you are going to teach in Asia, no matter what your ethnicity, you can expect *someone* to be prejudiced against you just because you are different. In that vein, I feel it is not the colour of the skin but the thickness of it that will matter in the end. Good luck to you. Smile
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pistonear



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 44
Location: Saudi Arabia and USA
Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:33 am Post subject: Tribalism's new?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear pistonear ( interesting user name ),
Have to disagree about racism, tribalism and ethnic superiority being " fairly new concepts ". The very word, " tribalism " gives a clue as to what kind of ( relatively speaking ) more " primitive " society it springs from. The ancient Greeks most definitely ( and with some good reasons ) considered themselves " superior " to other races,and nations - they coined the word we now have in English, " barbarian ", from the fact that the language of all those other guys sounded like so much nonsense ( i.e. " bar, bar, bar, etc. ). The Romans were no slouches at racial superiority, either, nor the Chinese, Japanese and Egyptians. How many countries, either back then or now, do you think had/have as their motto: " We're Number Two! "? This is not to say that some people, either then or now, were/are unwilling to learn from others. But I'm afraid a study of history - and one very good, fairly concise ( considering the subject matter ) book for that which I'd recommend is: " History of the World " by J.M. Roberts:

http://www.gtexts.com/worthreading/roberts.html

will all too often show that these jingoist tendencies have been around for awfully long time.
Regards,
John

Hello John,
I would disagree with you on barbarian comming from (bar bar bar) the term barbian comes from a place and a people who lived on the barbery coast. Barbarian was used to describe the Africans that came from there. Later people used it as a slur or put down like the word Nig***, but Nig*** is just a mispronunciation of the word Niger. The Greeks new that they were not number one, they may have advanced theories and philosophies, but they learned the lessons from the Egyptians. The name Egypt is a Greek word. Khem is the original name. The continent of Africa another Greek name was originally called Akebulon, but I will check out your book. You should read Flavius Joesephus, Dr. Ben, or John Jackson. Our schools and universities are only teaching Greek, many societies existed and flourished before Greece.
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pistonear



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capegirl,
I could not phrase it any better. I agree with you 100 percent.
Your students said that being darkend by the sun was considered low class. Interestingly enough the Song of Solomon talks about the same thing, so even back in the days Sheba descibed herself as Black and Comely(beautiful). The other Harrem girls would laugh at her and snicker, I guess the more things change the more they stay the same.
I like that everybody in the world is different. I like to meet and learn about all these other cultures. I don't believe in the concept of race, because I think there is only one race on the planet, the Human race.

P.S. If you want to protest something, here is one for you.
To this day in the state of Alabama,U.S.A it is illegal for a Black and a White person to get married. The case is being brought to the Alabama state supreme court. Hopefully it will be overturned. Just think a lot of us(myself included would not be here if our grandparents were from Alabama.)
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