Job Discussion Forums

[rfx24]

I will go to another job interview tomorrow at 10 am. This will be the third interview I have after settling in France. I can't wait for them to tell me that I can't get a job because I am a citoyen americain!

Bisous...

[medusa]

Salut RFX

Good luck tomorrow!!!
Which city are you in? What kind of visa have you got?
Fingers crossed for your interview, you never know!

[rfx24]

Actually, I didn't go to the interview. I just told them over the phone that I didn't have a titre de sejour. That was the end of that. I'm in Paris. I would have possibly gone to the interview if it wasn't raining really hard that day. Plus I didn't want the interviewer/recruiter who is British telling me in person that I can't work there. I still like Brits don't get me wrong.

Bottomline...EU and US rules on visas need to change!

[spiral78]

Bottom line, rfx24, thanks for posting about this. I received a PM recently from a US citizen who was also unsuccessful on the ground in France, regardless of qualifications and experience.

We know it's legally 99% impossible to get a visa for France, and I try to tell newbies this, so that they can at least have realistic expectations of their chances.

But so often they are convinced that somehow it's going to work for them, and they only want to hear 'good' news about their chances.

Like you, if they go there with realistic expectations, understanding that it's HIGHLY unlikely they will be able to get work, and while they find out for themselves, they've got the funds to enjoy the experience, that's fine.

Enjoy. Try. Plan to move on in the 99% event it won't work out.

[rfx24]

Yes its REALLY impossible to get this visa/work permit to France. The first two interviews I had were going really good and the conversation was good until they asked me my residency status. Once I told them that I was on a tourist, I was out the door after five minutes.

I was recommended to get a student visa which will allow me to work 20 hours based on the 35 hour work week. However, I have to find a school, enroll in it, PAY ITS TUITION, which would cost me thousands of Euros, go back to the US and apply for the visa in person at a French consulate, and wait for about two to three months before heading off to France. Its a lot of hoop jumping just to teach English in France. I will not make enough money to pay off all of these obstacles.

I really wish I could settle here (even if there is racism), but can't . Its interesting enough that Sarkozy is in the US with Bush right now trying to "improve" Franco-American relations. So can I get a visa now?

[forest1979]

I really find American attitudes baffling. What right do you have to just land in France and expect a job? Europeans hardly fly to the US and expect the same sort of thing! In fact the vast majority of Europeans are aware of what the US government is doing with regards to tightening work permits, entry visas, etc. and would hardly deem it correct for their governments to bend over backwards to US passport holders in such a context, amongst other things.

Secondly, anyone with any amount of common sense would be aware of (i) French bureaucracy and (ii) EU work regulations prior to leaving the US and arriving in Paris, thus avoiding the frustrations of not getting a job as a right upon arrival.

Thirdly, I find the posters comments about not going to a job interview simply because it was raining incredibly stupid. It just takes one break to get a job anywhere and as someone new in a different land you're hardly in a position to knock-back people. Ok, you maybe shall encounter exactly the same problems as in previous situations but through meeting people you get to network. That can lead to some kind of work, and despite what has been said Americans can get to work in TEFL in France if you show your worth and have some stand out talents. Obviously, holding an umbrella is one of them.

[spiral78]

forest, I find your comments contradictory. It's not a matter of knocking on enough doors, whether in the rain or not. rx didn't go because he's realized that the bottom line is that North Americans can't get work permits to teach in France - except maybe through a few university programs based in the US.

Going there and 'networking' for however long and hard, isn't going to get you legal papers - unless you network yourself into marraige.

[forest1979]

Of course non-EU people can get work permits. I worked for a language school in Paris that employed, for example, people from the US and Canada. And why where they employed? Because these people did not arrive on a tourist visa and with an attitude of out-right expectation of walking into a job. They didn't cry about the French either or the EU work regulations. They got their head down and endeavoured to find work, and when they did they got on with it. They met with people, travelled around the city to places where jobs where advertised and sent out CVs. In other words they were serious about work! They phoned people who could offer a bit of work here and there - hence the value of networking - until something more permenant was arranged (and permits sealed). They did not cry off because of the weather and because of the perception that the world and its dog is against them!

As the people who I knew showed, there are ways for non-EU people to get jobs. There are also other ways for non-EU people to not get jobs. One of which is going to an interview on a tourist visa. Would a person in the US get a job by announcing at an interview that they were in American on a tourist visa? If it doesn't work in the US what makes the French so contriving?

[spiral78]

If you can only legally enter France on a tourist visa, how are you going to get some different visa in order to present yourself as anything other than a tourist at a job interview? Raining or not.
I don't think they are issuing 'trying hard' visas...

[forest1979]

1. To reiterate, what makes an American citizens situation so different and special from the rest of the world prior to coming to France? My point is that people from Europe hardly go to the US on a mere tourist visa and turn up for interviews expecting work. Whether they want to or not they can't get work given the architecture of the visa system. Of course there are means to difficult navigate the bureuacracy but the reality is what you want to do and can do can be entirely different. At the very least however a mature attitude is needed and a major dose of "I'll get of my backside and shall try my hardest to find work".

2. If it's known to be so difficult for non-EU people to get visas why come in the first place on a tourist visa? Is there the self-belief that "I can strike it lucky", "I'll be different from everyone else", or are we back once more to the issue of arrogance once again?

3. In light of the issue of difficulties noted in point 2 if you are so in need of living and working in France then isn't the best way to do this is outside of the country, i.e. in your home country, from where you send CVs, get job interviews, and consequently legal entry on the correct visa? Moreover as has been stated 1001 times at this website the difficulties of people arriving on tourist visas why do people still then arrive without the best paperwork in hand?

[fancynan]

Why do they arrive with a tourist visa? With the same intent that so many people DO enter the US on tourist or no visas -- they will take an illegal job without working visas. And please don't immediately think that all the illegal immigrants in the US are from Mexico, Central or South America. There are illegal immigrants here, who are working illegally, from all over the world. Yes - even from Europe.

[forest1979]

The analogy with Mexicans crossing into America with US citizens coming to France is hardly a good one. Of course illegal immigrants can be found all over the place but there's some subtle differences with regards to the France situation than with the example given:

1. Mexicans coming to the US are generally not looking to work as language instructors

2. Most Mexicans coming to the US are generally not degree holders but have been forced through a lack of opportunities and economic hardship to try their luck somewhere else. Since when have young middle class US citizens coming to France to teach English been in the same situation?

3. The size of the black employment market in the US is many times larger to the black market of TEFL employees. As ignorant as I maybe am of TEFL affairs I have yet to come across a TEFL employment market comparable to fruit picking in California.

Say all you want, cite Mexican examples too if you like, but it's chalk and cheese. The bottom line is, and I have said this before, that people come to France from the US with the intention of working because they believe, for whatever reasons(s), they can get around the regulations and find work. Comparing the behaviour of a poverty stricken Mexican with a young, middle class, college educated US citizen is basically laughable, and demonstrates that those who come to France from the US to get TEFL work have a weak case at best.

[fancynan]

Perhaps you misunderstood my post. I specifically noted that not all illegal immigrants come from Latin American countries, thereby EXCLUDING them from the conversation.
Regardless, as this could degenerate into a p*ssing match, I shall not continue.

[medusa]

Very interesting points all round, might I note!

I think somewhere along the line people got wires crosses but here's my take on the subject. As a EU passport holder (British) I can freely move and work around Europe without any problem or hassle of visas. That is just what I did, after deciding to complete my studies in France, which I must point out to the OP, are very cheap, you can enroll in a 'licence' or 'maitrise' for around 300 euro per year, hence accessing the student visa, but alas you must return to the USA to obtain it.
I then found work in France in the same way any other french person would. No difference.

However, I have often thought of going to the US, but other than numerous holidays, I've never needed a visa (applicable for stays under three months duration for Brits). I would never dream of just applying for a job in any field and expect any other reply than: you can not work here legally. Simple. So, on this point I agree with forest79.

The French job market is a difficult nut to crack. After living over 7 yrs in France, and speaking fluently I often have knockbacks from reasons ranging from "you are TOO expereinced" ie: we have to pay you more so NO, to "you haven't studied at X college".

Basically I'm saying that, it isn't easy, if you really want to work in France I wouldn't suggest coming over on a tourist visa, but if you are already here, don't give up. It may take a long time. If you have the time to give, do so because you might fall lucky - who knows!

good luck to all regardless of their nationality who search work in France.

[forest1979]

This is a massive generalisation but those people from non-EU countries who work in TEFL in France teach English as a career. They are very professional people and see TEFL as a means to work for life. Prior to coming to France they did a hell of a lot of research AND applied for work from the US or Canada before coming. Hence they arrrived with the correct paperwork, and were highly pragmatic in their outlook to things. On the flipside those who come on holiday visas looking for work are not necessarily younger than the previous mentioned categories but they do have an almost romantic vision of living in France for a couple of years or so. In otherwords the majority of these people are not looking to be in France TEFL for a long, long time. Consequently with or without the paperwork it is difficult for them to persuade potential employers of their long-term committment, and given French bureaucracy I don't blame a single employer for passing these people by. Why endeavour to spend hours going through the paperwork when these people will leave after 1-2 years.

Ok, so I have thrown another element into the overall discussion but I get the impression from the countless comments and threads at this website that those arriving on tourist visas are simply not pragmatists. Basic and minimal research would enlighten anyone to the problems of just arriving in France. Thus if anyone is serious about coming to the EU, and not just France, do what you must in your own country so that the paperwork is right before you arrive, and you have a better chance of grasping the lumbering economies of some European nations, i.e. France.