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Xian Jiaotong - Liverpool University - any information?
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Sallyman



Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

markfjcoyle wrote:
there ARE good chances for promotion (not if you constantly complain thou Rolling Eyes ), and the whole area is developing very fast.


I think Been There had some good questions:

been_there wrote:

What kind of development opportunities do they offer? Can you take classes at Liverpool? Will they sponsor your research? What about promotions? Can you move on to work at Liverpool?



Could you be a bit more specific? What opportunities exist? What are you going to be promoted to next year? And what are the complaints that prevent promotion? Are you saying promotion is based on keeping quiet? I want to get my MA in ESL and eventually work my way up to an AC or Director position. That's far in the future, but that's the way I look at things. It looks like a good job for making money, even if I just have a CELTA, what are the chances of me getting anything more than classroom hours?
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markfjcoyle



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 3
Location: Suzhou

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Errr...
Lots of questions, sadly most of which i dont know the answers to.
I have a diploma (Trinity) and I am an Associate tutor (in the midldle of 3 bands), once I have an MA I could be promoted to a tutor position. So until I get the MA I can only go one rung higher. For the more ambitous of you, above the tutors are senior tutors and Deputy Director and Director.

As for my development- there is a good chance the Uni will pay towards my MA. Nothing in stone, but the head of HR has said they are looking at the fairest method for teachers and the uni. It will probably be like paying a percentage of the fee each year. However, I'm fairly sure I will be expected to do it all in my own time and will have a 16-20hr teaching week. To me, that sounds quite fair- I work for them for 3 years and they pay a part of the fees for my development.

The relationship with Liverpool isn;t the clearest- so I dont know about those questions. But they would make good questions in your interview!


Mark
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Sallyman



Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I don't understand: on the Xian Jiaotong Liverpool website job ads, it lists Assistants, Tutors and Senior Tutors. In the job description on the webpages, Assistants, Tutors and Senior Tutors all need an MA in Applied Linguistics / TESOL. I only have a CELTA, but they said they are interested in me anyway. You said you don't have an MA, just a Trinity, so that's not a big deal? Associates (is that the same as Assistant?) only need a certificate?

And yes, I will ask about advancement. When I get my MA, and I'd want my employer to help out, then on to a PhD!

markfjcoyle wrote:
For the more ambitous of you, above the tutors are senior tutors and Deputy Director and Director.


I want to work my way up! That's great that you can do that. I was looking at ads for heads of departments at some schools in China, and found this for another University:


Nottingham Ningbo wrote:

Head of the Division of English Studies
Division of English Studies
Applications are invited for the above post in the Division of English Studies based at the University of Nottingham Ningbo, China. The Head of the Division will provide academic leadership and effective management for the Division of English Studies and the Centre for Research in Applied Linguistics. Candidates should have research interests in applied linguistics, English for academic purposes, English as an international language, literary stylistics or other relevant area. The teaching element of this post will support the expansion of the Division's successful undergraduate and postgraduate degrees.
Candidates must have a PhD in applied linguistics, an established track record in research, a strong record of publication and attracting external research funding, experience of teaching in relevant subjects at undergraduate and postgraduate level in an international English-speaking institution, and academic and team leadership skills.
Salary will be within the range £42,971 - £51,095 per annum


I've seen some online M.A.'s, but what about PhD's? It's early days, but has anyone done online PhD's? I mean, from a reliable school?
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Stepho



Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:52 am    Post subject: PhD associate professor XJTLU Reply with quote

Hello all,
Do you know how much normally a PhD associate professor gets at XJTLU?

thanks
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YankeeDoodleDandy



Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 428
Location: Xi'an , Shaanxi China

PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget all the perks and second apartments in your calculations. As foreign teachers we are outside of the loop for most of this information. Special dinners, meeting, trips abroad, conferences etc,etc Laughing
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lf_aristotle69



Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 546
Location: HangZhou, China

PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:48 pm    Post subject: ESL vs. Specialist Reply with quote

YankeeDoodleDandy wrote:
Don't forget all the perks and second apartments in your calculations. As foreign teachers we are outside of the loop for most of this information. Special dinners, meeting, trips abroad, conferences etc,etc Laughing



You mean for Chinese teachers and "leaders".

I always laugh when I read those recruiters advertisements that still (they've been saying the same thing for at least the last 6 years now...) say that the FT getting 3500rmb/month is great because even school principals only get 1500rmb/month...

So, for the teachers employed at this XJTUL school you're all talking about, who actually pays those high salaries? Is it the Uni of Liverpool? Or, Xian JiaoTong?

And, how high are we talking?

Assistant Tutor
Tutor
Senior Tutor

People seem to be saying that they (XJTUL) advertise for M.A.s and Ph.D.s, but also accept someone with just high school and a CELTA then:

1. it might mean that they simply can't recruit enough people with high level quals.

2. that people with the high qualifications don't think the salary is what they're worth.

3. that people are just confused. I'm guessing that XJT recruits ESL staff locally at a lower rate and that UL sends it's own specialist people out periodically.
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Tabula Rasa



Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:46 am    Post subject: Answers Reply with quote

lf_aristotle69 wrote:

So, for the teachers employed at this XJTLU school you're all talking about, who actually pays those high salaries? Is it the Uni of Liverpool? Or, Xian JiaoTong?


Xian Jiaotong - Liverpool is a joint-venture; neither XJT or LU. Or both, if you're a glass-half-full type. It was started with money from the Laureate Education Inc., a company, beholden to its shareholders to MAKE MONEY.

lf_aristotle69 wrote:

And, how high are we talking?


Salaries are posted on their website.

lf_aristotle69 wrote:

People seem to be saying that they (XJTUL) advertise for M.A.s and Ph.D.s, but also accept someone with just high school and a CELTA then:

1. it might mean that they simply can't recruit enough people with high level quals.

2. that people with the high qualifications don't think the salary is what they're worth.

3. that people are just confused. I'm guessing that XJT recruits ESL staff locally at a lower rate and that UL sends it's own specialist people out periodically.


The English Language Center at XJTLU started out claiming that ALL their English teachers had AT LEAST an MA. They no longer do this (although if you look at the standing displays in their lobby, the claim is still there. Look at the second sentence of the second paragraph in the photo, below). The way they get around it is by having the real, actual "Tutors" and then the "Associate Tutors." Although both do the same work; teach the same classes and have the same hours, "Tutors" have MA's and get paid a LOT more, while the Associate Tutors soldier on, teach EAP and EF classes, and write curriculum but don't get paid as much.


Interestingly, you do not have to have an MA in an English, or even teaching, related field to be a Tutor. XJTLU has hired Tutors with MA's in Chinese language and culture, and even an MA in public health.


As for your point 3, above, none of the teachers were hired by Liverpool University; they were hired by XJTLU. Although the Director of the English Language Unit at Liverpool University occasionally comes out, they do not interfere in the management of the English Language Centere.


Photo of XJTLU lobby display:


XJTLU wrote:
All have overseas university's master and/or doctoral degrees in language teaching.
[/quote]
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SnoopBot



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rumor has it - remember I read this = Rumor until proven true.

Those high salaries are paid to MA Ed TESOL (or above) and APL degree holders. Well those with the above qualifications are hired in at the lower wage levels of "Teaching Assistant" for a trial period, which is determined by the institution. (I read this trial period often was a whole 1-year contract period)

Once the trial period is over, they promise to promote those that meet the education requirements for the top-tier salary levels. This often NEVER happens, and contracts are terminated before the highly qualified teachers are paid those stated salary rates.

Thus, they can fill the ranks with MA Ed holders with solid credentials and well-documented experience at the lower TEACHING ASSISTANT wages.

Almost none get the full pay levels promised, hence high turnover and teaching dissatisfaction. Those that are paid those wages are teachers already teaching at the host joint-venture university and brought in country. Not local hires or hires from other institutions abroad.

Therefore, they can hire the best and brightest and pay 6000 RMB a month (teaching assistant) with the promise of a 20K a month salary in the future. That future does not materialize for the former teachers who stated this situation on other ESL sites.

I also read they seem to work longer hours than the contract stipulates for that 6000-8000 RMB a month. (Teaching Assistant wage) {Office hours and other functions were unpaid -30+ hours a week was more the typical workload}

Maybe someone else can verify if what I posted above is true or not- I have NO experience with this university and only posting some of the disgruntled points others have posted concerning this matter.
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Tabula Rasa



Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:42 am    Post subject: Hours at XJTLU Reply with quote

The contract states that teachers must be on campus from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., Monday to Friday, with one hour for lunch. That's 35 hours a week.

Teachers are contracted for 20 teaching hours a week, although some teachers are assigned 20 and some only 8. If there is a schedule problem, though, an unfortunate individual can be saddled with more than 20 teaching hours a week because the contract says that you teach 20 hours a week "averaged over the semester", so you might get 22 one week and 18 the next...

And they don't count personal tutorials as teaching hours.
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SnoopBot



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tabula Rasa wrote:
The contract states that teachers must be on campus from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., Monday to Friday, with one hour for lunch. That's 35 hours a week.

Teachers are contracted for 20 teaching hours a week, although some teachers are assigned 20 and some only 8. If there is a schedule problem, though, an unfortunate individual can be saddled with more than 20 teaching hours a week because the contract says that you teach 20 hours a week "averaged over the semester", so you might get 22 one week and 18 the next...

And they don't count personal tutorials as teaching hours.


What about the complaints I've read on other ESL boards that claim this institution will hire their MA Ed (fully qualified) teachers always at the lower assistant tutor rates at the discount salary levels?

Here is the summary of these claims:

1. Hire fully-qualified teachers with experience and education levels but always pay lower than the stated salary tables.

2. Claim that some type of probation period is required before going up to the stated salary levels- this never happens as they are terminated at the end of contract (the probation period) Hence: A MA Ed or PhD working for 6000 RMB a month for +20 hours. I've read probation period in some cases, lasted more than 1-year.

3. Top educated qualified teachers are often over-worked and loaded with high hours and activities at the bargain rates claimed for the probation period. (The not-so good BA Teaching Assistant FT gets 8-hours a week, while the best experienced and educated MA's get those +20-hours a week. Both get the same base-pay rates.

If these rumors are true, I can see why they have a high turnover rate, the top performers are lured by high salaries but end up never getting to those salary levels. In addition, those same performers are worked +20-hours teaching load and unpaid office hours that gives a +40-hour work week for the same lower range Teaching Assistant paid positions. 6000-10,000 a month in Shanghai area is not very good.

I see a high burnout rate for those that are considered the best. The difference is that they are not fully-paid for their work and the salary rates are some type of lure to attract the top-end Tesol professionals.

Can you confirm or deny these assumptions?

(Again I have no experience or first-hand knowledge about the institution and I am trying to clarify what I've heard and read from the rumor-mill)
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Tabula Rasa



Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:07 am    Post subject: Pay (or not to pay) Reply with quote

I have heard the complaints of which you speak, also as rumors, and, having no experience with them, can not comment.

What I WILL tell you is that the reasons for promotions and pay increases are opaque and unexplainable, at least to me.

Why do some teachers get double the yearly (8%) pay raises and others don't? Why are teachers with no MA promoted to team leader? Why are there two teachers, each "tutor C", with MA's, and one gets RMB 5000 more a month?

The only trend I have seen is that they are based on a candidates willingness to agree with whatever the ELC director says rather than any empirical notions of relative ability. As the poster said, above:

markfcoyle wrote:
there ARE good chances for promotion (not if you constantly complain thou Rolling Eyes )


My advice: GET IT IN WRITING. Whatever you are promised, if it's not in the contract, you are NOT going to get it.
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El Macho



Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 162

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:24 am    Post subject: Re: Pay (or not to pay) Reply with quote

Tabula Rasa wrote:
My advice: GET IT IN WRITING. Whatever you are promised, if it's not in the contract, you are NOT going to get it.
Solid advice for just about everything job-related in China.
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Tabula Rasa



Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:27 pm    Post subject: CYA Reply with quote

I must disagree with you on that one. While the management would LIKE teachers to perform at the level of a real western university, the sad fact is that they have a very limited idea as to what language teaching consists of and, therefore, are unable to provide the management (goals and guidance) that would enable teachers to do a good job.

As an example:
The listening curriculum, given to all the teachers at the beginning of semester two, and the final listening exam given to the students, had only one item in common. The committee that wrote the exam had not seen the curriculum, and the director of the English Language Centre did not have enough knowledge of how an EAP program works to link the curriculum and the exams. The external examiner, responsible for quality control of the exams, did not look at the curriculum or even listen to the audio part of the exam.

It's basic stuff like this, coming from the top, that prevents the teachers from creating a top-level program. When the director has no idea how languages should be taught, learned or tested, the program will be in shambles.

Currently, the director is fighting a battle against teachers who want a solid curriculum for the courses, separating them from the new teachers so they don't "infect" them with their wild ideas of needs analysis, curriculum design, academic research, and committee-designed exams.

So, although the greed factor is there (the president of the university, MOD EDIT, recently lost his job, rumor being because he wasn't earning enough money for the Laureate Corporation), it COULD be a good program if the head of the ELC knew what he was doing, and wasn't just fighting to cover his butt.
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Moon Over Parma



Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 819

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MOD EDIT
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theincredibleegg



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If someone used the name of a university of my home country to make a s***** school that rips people of their money, I would seriously do something about it. No way that any off this a******* are going to profit from work of others because they can't do s*** themselves.
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