Job Discussion Forums

[sperling]

As a (better) alternative, please visit www.esljudge.com

This website offers a free mediation service to resolve disputes between schools and teachers. You can also rate schools in countries around the world.

[alexcase]

It's a nice idea, but can't see how it's going to work. What's more, lots of the functions, like having recommended schools, doesn't seem to fit in with the aim of being a middle man between teachers and schools at all.

[Sgt Killjoy]

It is a good idea and the ratings of school is something TEFLWatch has been doing for more than close to 18 months.

I just hope any service doesn't put teachers at a disadvantage, but this looks like a good service for the few schools that do actually care about their reputation and would like to solve issues. Maybe there are a few teachers who can take advantage of this.

[redsoxfan]

Doesn't this suggest that TEFL is not a real "profession"? Real professionals do not resolve contractual disputes over Skype with strangers, they use a formal arbitration process to force employers to honor contracts. My mother, for example, is a "real" teacher. She would take any dispute to the teacher's union, and their lawyers would do whatever lawyers do.

Either a school is honoring the contract or it isn't. If not, I don't suppose that they would change their minds because of some non-binding suggestion from a legally irrelevant website.

All of this underscores a more fundamental point: there are good schools and institutions out there (often owned/run by fellow foreigners) who will offer fair contracts and compensation, and honor such agreements. It is up to us to seek them out and to research them, contacting past and present teachers for feedback.

Now, if a dispute arises because there simply is no contract, well...that goes back to my original point: no real professional would take a job without a contract.

As far as the school ranking function on this website goes--great. It would be wonderful to have a consolidated database of opinions on language schools, and I think we should all post our opinions of schools we have worked for. But I think this idea of solving problems through a website won't work. It seems like an afterthought, really.

[vinpinman]

TEFL Watch is already doing a pretty good job, the TEFL Blacklist also.

[zeke0606]

redsoxfan

Are you still in Baku?
And still with Languages Services Direct?
I understand that that school doesn't follow the contracts that they don't sign and you must. That is fairly one way -- your name on the contract and not theirs. Not very legal and not very binding.................

Zeke

[redsoxfan]

I have never worked for Language Services Direct.

[Nemesis]

[jwbhomer]

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=58849

In spite of my gut feeling that this isn't going to fly, I join the previous poster in congratulating Dave for trying and wishing the project well.

There are several -- ok, at least three -- ex-lawyers who are or have been ESL teachers in teacher. It might be good to have that kind of person involved to establish some rules regarding evidence and procedure.

In this regard, I'm reminded of a couple of threads running on the Taiwan board in which the OP complains that he was unfairly dismissed by a school for "touching" a student "on the waist". He says it was all a campaign to fire him, and none of the accusations were true and he has evidence (including video or photos?) to prove it. It would make a great test case.

[redsoxfan]

If a teacher was dismissed for sexual harrassment, this is a case for the courts. Isn't it entirely degrading to our profession that the best recourse he should receive is to have his "case" moderated by strangers over Skype who will issue a completely non-binding verdict? Can anyone name me another profession in which expats resolve disputes in this manner?

The best way to not have problems with a school is to work for a reputable company/institution. Most private schools know that foreigners have little recourse due to the fact that they don't know their rights, their rights are not respected in that particular country, or the benefit of bringing a case to court is far outweighed by the costs of doing so. The best solution for people who have been jerked around by a disreputable school is typically to get another job in the same city, or else move. That's TEFL.

The best way not to get involved with a company like that is to research it thoroughly. I have found Daveseslcafe to be the best clearinghouse of information regarding particular schools. I kind of figure that if such relevant opinions are not to be found here, they won't be found anywhere else.

[jwbhomer]

The teacher in question seems to think he isn't going to get a fair shake from the TW courts. He seems to lack confidence in the strength of his case. If you read his posts on the thread in question -- "A Cautionary Tale" -- you'll see that there are definitely two sides to this particular coin.

Looking at the big picture, I think a lot of FTs WOULD rather have their complaints heard by a panel of "people like themselves" who will understand their language and understand where they're coming from, rather than the courts or governing bodies of a school in, say, China, where a foreigner really is at a disadvantage.

I take your point about researching a school thoroughly so you don't find yourself in a situation where arbitration is called for. Unfortunately, many FTs are surprisingly naive and gullible, and get into dodgy situations because they are basically "innocents abroad".

For instance, the teacher accused of inappropriate touching thought he could stand on the presumption of innocence enshrined in Anglo-American common law. He has now been told the presumption is the opposite in civil law systems such as that of Taiwan. And he is not the only one. I have seen several posters here respond to questions and problems by saying "In the USA it would be handled this way..."

[redsoxfan]

I am sure that the teacher in question would like to have his case heard by a panel of his peers, but can you really imagine the school owner choosing to go along with this? Here's the conversation:

Teacher: "Instead of you yourself making decisions about how you will run your school/livelihood, I have found a website which will do it for you. Basically, a bunch of other English teachers who neither of us have ever met will make your decisions for you."

School Owner: "No."

You are indeed correct that we have very different legal systems/rights than many of the countries where we teach. Why then would a school owner in China, who can effectively do whatever he wants, voluntarily put himself in a position where he will be forced to abide by the laws/legal traditions of another country? In fact, why should he?

I certainly agree with you that most teachers will not be able to take their disputes to court, which is another reason why most TEFL jobs are not real professional expat jobs. My point is simply that such a website will do little good because unscrupulous school owners will never agree to such a sytem of arbitration.

It's a bit clumsy and awkward anyway, isn't it?

[jwbhomer]

Redsoxfan: Yes, that was pretty much the point of my first post in this thread. I agree with you.

Whether that makes TEFL "not a real profession" is a topic for another thread. I must admit that even though I was called "Professor" I never really felt like one. On the other hand, I did regard myself as considerably better than the proverbial dancing white monkey.

[johnslat]

Dear Dave,
I think this site still needs to get some bugs fixed:

"Server Error in '/' Application.

Runtime Error

Description: An application error occurred on the server. The current custom error settings for this application prevent the details of the application error from being viewed remotely (for security reasons). It could, however, be viewed by browsers running on the local server machine.

Details: To enable the details of this specific error message to be viewable on remote machines, please create a <customErrors> tag within a "web.config" configuration file located in the root directory of the current web application. This <customErrors> tag should then have its "mode" attribute set to "Off".


<!-- Web.Config Configuration File -->

<configuration>
<system.web>
<customErrors mode="Off"/>
</system.web>
</configuration>

Notes: The current error page you are seeing can be replaced by a custom error page by modifying the "defaultRedirect" attribute of the application's <customErrors> configuration tag to point to a custom error page URL.


<!-- Web.Config Configuration File -->

<configuration>
<system.web>
<customErrors mode="RemoteOnly" defaultRedirect="mycustompage.htm"/>
</system.web>
</configuration>

Also it seems to be still mostly "under construction."

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

^ John is that you ?




Welcome back. Long time no frivolous banter.

Those errors you're getting are because you're in the USA.

To get rid of them you'll have to hop on a plane and return to TEFLand.