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veiledsentiments



Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 16118
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At least three people that I know have been offered jobs this year are highly qualified with MAs and Middle East experience. They have been offered salaries that are competitive with places like HCT and ZU in the UAE. Two have accepted and one did not because of a higher offer. (BTW, all three are also native speakers)

As to why you were not responded to... perhaps your employers passed on information that wasn't flattering. Another friend of mine working in Qatar was not hired by QU for this very reason. You could have picked up the telephone and called and asked if you were really interested in knowing the answer. It wouldn't have even been long distance. Laughing

Good Luck with your new job. I agree with you that the Emirates is a better place to live.

VS
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harrythehook



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to disappoint Miss VS but I am leaving the Gulag on very good terms with a topnotch reference and a handshake. The nature of the Gulag is that people don't hang around too long. It's part of the job scene here. The joint definitely did not contact my employers (I checked on this) so I am still left up in the air about the whole application thing. Anyhoo, thanks for your good luck, it makes me feel better after the caterwhauling you gave me some time back.

About the exGulager working at the joint. This individual had ????? qualifications in the first place and then joined another Gulag affiliated outfit run by Mal the Pal (who is no longer is in charge, he is missed by some of us). A lot of us originally came to the Gulag under Mal the Pal. The joint asks for MA qualifications so when a Gulager gets an offer without these qualifications, it's made a lot of other Gulagers wonder what the deal is. The Gulag is full of nonnative speakers. Most of them are excellent teachers, so I am not criticizing nonnative speakers. My point is but some know how to speak English properly, some don't. Some don't make grammar mistakes, some do. Almost all of our nonnative speakers are even better than the native speakers.What the Gulagers are speculating about is how come a person who doesn't have an MA and who has a heavy accent (students complained that the person was hard to understand - need I say more on that point) is offered a job by an institution that advertizes that the minimum qualifications needed are an MA degree in the relevant field. Offering a position to someone without the required qualifications undermines the credentials of the teachers who have them. Hiring someone without the right credentials makes a mockery of the qualified teachers' training and credentials. A lot of Gulagers want to know what the deal is. Most of them have a BA so if that is all that is required, then they should be considered for the job too. Like the exjoint teacher told me, it's all personal politics. If the boss likes you, you stay, if he doesn't, you don't. A pretty simple equation but it's not an unusual one for this part of the world. This exteacher has very good qualifications but was one of the people they dumped with no explanation although he asked. He says they don't care about good teachers, it's all about image. Anyhoo, it's not my problem but this is an important point. I think all qualified teachers don't want to have their qualifications undermined by working with teachers who don't. If an institution says applicants have to have an MA then they all should be required to have one, no exceptions. If there is one exception, then then have to make others as they have set a precedent. Let other Gulagers in on the job.

Anyhoo, heading off to the airport in a couple of hours. Sun, sand, R&R my great girlfriend, and all the beer I can guzzle.
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thursday12



Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hope this info just ain't true - a real insult if teachers wid a BA only gettin hired round here.
yer right harry, if they ask for an MA n' hire people wid a BA, it's not fair - especially if they get the same salary.

people already gripin about the teachers they got straight outta grad school - no experience but they earn same as the rest of us. now is that fair? no credit for experience. y' all get the same moolah unless ya get promoted to the 3rd floor. then ya get a bonus, no idear how much, tho.

well, to be realistic - havin an MA basically means bein overqualified for what we do. it wud be a durn shame if they hire people wid BAs and pay them the same as the rest of us

jest not fair, but then what is round here?
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mishmumkin



Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 896

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
people already gripin about the teachers they got straight outta grad school - no experience but they earn same as the rest of us. now is that fair? no credit for experience. y' all get the same moolah unless ya get promoted to the 3rd floor. then ya get a bonus, no idear how much, tho.


I saw QU at a job fair. For those who met w/ them at a job fair, didn't the more seasoned veterans wonder why everyone got the same informational document w/ the salary printed on there? You would hope that anyone applying for a job asks how their experience is factored into the salary (if at all). I'm surprised that those w/ more experience didn't do their research on this before accepting the job.
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thursday12



Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey man, when we were hired there weren't no young'uns. Who'da thot they'd bring newbies just outta grad school wid no experience.
Now we hear people widout an MA are comin on board. If they don't make the same moolah, who cares? But if they do ..... big sore point.
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mishmumkin



Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 896

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flat salary is a flat salary. When you applied I'm sure you had no idea the credentials and experience of all your future colleagues, correct? I don't agree w/ the practice of the same salary regardless of experience, but had I taken a job w/ QU I would have buried that hatchet long before the academic year started. I would expect most veteran ESOL teachers would have considered what a flat salary meant before taking the job.
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qatarwatch



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mishmumkin wrote:
Flat salary is a flat salary. When you applied I'm sure you had no idea the credentials and experience of all your future colleagues, correct? I don't agree w/ the practice of the same salary regardless of experience, but had I taken a job w/ QU I would have buried that hatchet long before the academic year started. I would expect most veteran ESOL teachers would have considered what a flat salary meant before taking the job.


Fuzzy logic here. Both the job ad and the QU website go to pains to highlight the institution's lofty standards and ambitious accreditation plans. Some people seek employment on the basis of more than strictly salary. Some people consider the professional development opportunities that exist in places which employ experienced and qualified faculty. To accept an offer from QU (or any other institution) only to find that their standards are not what they claim is certainly a reason to feel cheated. In any civilized place this might even be grounds enough for a civil claim against the employer!

In any event, QU is eagerly seeking accreditation with the various Western bodies that do this sort of thing, so it's unlikely that any BA's will be hired there in the future.

** Incidentally, I heard that QU will not be offering a cost of living salary increase this spring or summer. Faculty members were offered only more vague overtures about ongoing studies on regional salary levels. I wonder who they have doing these studies? I mean, a teacher living in Japan with 2 bottles of sake in his/her belly could do a quick search here in Dave's and give you a pretty fair estimate of the differences between the salaries offered at QU and those in the UAE.

Well, it seems that Qatar is simply not in the same league as the UAE in yet another category!


Last edited by qatarwatch on Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mishmumkin



Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 896

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the fuzzy logic in this? You are clearly bothered that those w/ less teaching experience were offered the same salary as you. You imply that it somehow detracts from QU's "lofty standards" claim. Why didn't you ask the question when you applied? Almost every employer that offered me a job this year gave me a breakfdown of why I was being offered the salary I was being offered. When QU pulled out the mass produced list of benefits, I already knew what that meant: people w/ more (or less) experience were going to be offered the same salary.

You said:
Quote:
To accept an offer from QU (or any other institution) only to find that their standards are not what they claim is certainly a reason to feel cheated


For someone who's just suggested that "some people" (i.e. you) seek employment on the basis of more than strictly salary, you're placing a good bit of emphasis of how the flat salary offer detracts from the university's alleged standards for new hires. I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, but you didn't do your homework. In the very least, you didn't think through what the flat salary offer would really mean to you down the road.

Incidentally, lots of grads coming out of US MA TESOL programmes will have been teaching for up to 2 years when they graduate. Some of your current colleagues attended the same MA programmes as friends of mine-all of them teaching EAP for the university in addition to their studies. How is that experience any different from someone who teaches EAP post-degree? All of my teaching experience (6+ years with much of it in the Middle East) was done pre-MA completion. So am I too green to uphold the "standards" promised by QU since I'm fresh out of a masters programme? If 4 of my 6 years were teaching young learners, am I going to detract from the quality of the faculty that QU has promised you?

I'll say this again: I don't like the idea of the flat salary offer, but what QU is offering is very competitive compared to what HCT, SQU, and others. It was competitive enough for me to consider taking the offer, because I felt the money was a fair offer based on my experience-not compared to those around me.
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qatarwatch



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mishmumkin wrote:
For someone who's just suggested that "some people" (i.e. you) seek employment on the basis of more than strictly salary, you're placing a good bit of emphasis of how the flat salary offer detracts from the university's alleged standards for new hires. I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, but you didn't do your homework. In the very least, you didn't think through what the flat salary offer would really mean to you down the road.


I don't want to be antagonistic either. However, I wrote my last post with the 6 or 7 other posts prior to yours in mind as well. These people were rightly concerned that the hiring of BA's or people without adequate experience reduces both the depth and breadth of professional expertise at QU (and elsewhere where qualifications and experience standards are made explicit). Such hiring practices have at least two effects:

1. It diminishes the quality of professional development opportunities. As a recent MA-TESOL grad this lesson should probably still be fresh in your mind. How did you select your MA program? Would you have been upset if, after paying your tuition, you discovered that all of your instructors were newly graduated MA's themselves ~ and without any relevant experience to convey? Or perhaps “you had no idea of the credentials and experience of your future” instructors before you committed yourself to that program. People seek to associate with quality, in all things, which is commensurate with their own estimation of themselves.


2. Hiring less experienced individuals with sub-standard (as per an employer’s job ad or website, or as per the industry/regional standard) qualifications allows institutions to hold back salary increases and benefits. You can bet your bottom dollar that language program administrators apply a logarithmic approach to personnel management. The logarithm goes something like this - for every seasoned vet with solid credentials that is hired, a junior, sometimes unqualified person will be recruited as well. This is done for obvious reasons – qualified vets expect more from their employers, believing that they have earned it, while neophytes cannot believe their good fortune when they land the same compensation package as the vets. Neophytes put downward pressure on salaries and benefits by reducing the overall demand for increases of such and also by diminishing the ethical imperative for increases due to the fact their lower credentials do not warrant increases.

Flat salaries are fine (although rising salaries are better ^^) , perhaps, as long as publicly stated recruiting standards are upheld.

BTW – my posts are/were general observations. I have no direct experience with QU.
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mishmumkin



Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 896

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
These people were rightly concerned that the hiring of BA's or people without adequate experience reduces both the depth and breadth of professional expertise at QU (and elsewhere where qualifications and experience standards are made explicit). Such hiring practices have at least two effects:


Hiring those w/ only a BA is news to me...I am somewhat suspicious of the source of that information.

Quote:
1. It diminishes the quality of professional development opportunities. As a recent MA-TESOL grad this lesson should probably still be fresh in your mind. How did you select your MA program?

How does it diminish the quality of PD opportunities?

Quote:
Would you have been upset if, after paying your tuition, you discovered that all of your instructors were newly graduated MA's themselves ~ and without any relevant experience to convey? Or perhaps “you had no idea of the credentials and experience of your future” instructors before you committed yourself to that program.

Here is the absolute tragic reality of ESOL teachers in the Gulf: are are not valued. Masters or no masters. You're comparing apples and oranges by suggesting that a recent MA TESOL grad teaching foundation English is somehow cheating the students. BA holders? When I hear it from the horse's mouth I'll believe it. The person that came on the board and annouced that a former colleague of his w/ an accent and a BA was hired there (teaching? Admin? local hire?). The person sharing this info was also never offered an job w/ QU despite applying.

Quote:
Hiring less experienced individuals with sub-standard (as per an employer’s job ad or website, or as per the industry/regional standard) qualifications allows institutions to hold back salary increases and benefits. You can bet your bottom dollar that language program administrators apply a logarithmic approach to personnel management. The logarithm goes something like this - for every seasoned vet with solid credentials that is hired, a junior, sometimes unqualified person will be recruited as well. This is done for obvious reasons – qualified vets expect more from their employers, believing that they have earned it, while neophytes cannot believe their good fortune when they land the same compensation package as the vets. Neophytes put downward pressure on salaries and benefits by reducing the overall demand for increases of such and also by diminishing the ethical imperative for increases due to the fact their lower credentials do not warrant increases.

Like I said: I'm not a fan of the practice, but before taking a job one should explore the details of how their salary is decided, what increases are standard, and make a decision from there. ESOL teachers are not valued in the region, and therefore they are underpaid. This contract still paid a teacher w/ 3+ years experience and a MA TESOL more than HCT does and nearly as much as Zayed U. If one had lots of experience, I would suggest looking elsewhere in the Gulf, though for a candidate w/ 0-5 years this still pays quite competitively and, according to current faculty, involved a lot less on campus time than the post-secondary counterparts in the region.
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WhatsGrammar?



Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thursday12 wrote:
hope this info just ain't true - a real insult if teachers wid a BA only gettin hired round here.
yer right harry, if they ask for an MA n' hire people wid a BA, it's not fair - especially if they get the same salary.

people already gripin about the teachers they got straight outta grad school - no experience but they earn same as the rest of us. now is that fair? no credit for experience. y' all get the same moolah unless ya get promoted to the 3rd floor. then ya get a bonus, no idear how much, tho.

well, to be realistic - havin an MA basically means bein overqualified for what we do. it wud be a durn shame if they hire people wid BAs and pay them the same as the rest of us

jest not fair, but then what is round here?


Whats your MA in?
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boundforsaudi



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 243

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good question. I'd hire a BA in English before I'd hire an MA in Education.
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stickleback



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep on posting thursday12. Your observations are very helpful to many and they correctly sum up what is going on.

Just for the record, teachers at the foundation are all properly qualified with the right degrees although it is true some have very little experience
and the pay disparity is unfair. Experienced teachers should be given credit for their years of experience while teachers with no or little experience should start at the bottom of the payscale. This is something for the administration people to work on. Almost all universities acknowledge experience in their payscales, it's time this place did. In any case, I have resigned and am moving on, so it's not something that affects me but it does affect the teachers already there.

Reduce the stress, workload, fix the salaries, treat people as individuals and things are bound to improve. There are a lot of nice people in the foundation program and that's what makes it all bearable. Even some of the admin types are nice people. In fact, a lot of nice people, so I hope they learn to keep them instead of get rid of them.

Signing out of Qatar

stickleback the fisherman
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wilberforce



Joined: 27 Dec 2008
Posts: 647

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Reduce the stress, workload, fix the salaries, treat people as individuals and things are bound to improve.
.


I can't agree more. This advice applies to every institution. Treat people nicely and they respond, treat them like dirt and they'll hate you for it.
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