Job Discussion Forums

[Glen Denton]

I was getting into an elevator today and this kid is standing next to his father pointing at me. He keeps yelling Loa Wai (whitey) and his father tells him that I am a Wai Gwo Ren (foreigner) not Loa Wai.
I might advise against learning Chinese too well if you don't plan on staying. Most of the derogatory comments made are in Taiwanese or Chinese. Most foreign teachers are spared knowing they are being harassed because it goes right over their heads. I have been called a "wai gwo ren" or foreigner on countless occassions, walking down the street and so on. I personally have no objection to it but many of the old timers get offended particuarly since many of the so called "wai gwo ren" and "loa wai" have been on Taiwan longer than the ROC. Met and old priest in Hau Lien who used to point back to the Chinese kids and yell "wai gwo ren".
I don't think I could ever call Taiwan home, so I am happy to be a foreigner. It means I have someplace better to be and no obligation to this place.

[TRUBADOUR]

It should not be so easy to offended by ignorance!

[blackmagicABC]

Firstly it is Lao and not loa and the wo sound after "g" becomes guo depending on which romanization system you use.
Lao Wai is slang (not bad or derogatory) for foreigner and DOES NOT mean Whitey. The word is also used to describe people from Indonesia or Phillipines. If you are around these people long enough you will find out that they are sometimes even called Wai Lao meaning "outside laborers" literally people from another country using there bodies (as opposed to brains) to perform work.
Since this is a language forum you should know that language without context is useless in study. Someone can call you a name that is not perceived as bad but in the context it could be derogatory.
You can not base an assumption on a little knowledge of the language and culture. The two terms are not offensive at all. It all depends on the context and more often than not it is not intended to be offensive.
Children are not able to distinguish between what is socially acceptable and what not. They will walk in the street and shout "a blind man". Is calling a blind man blind offensive? No. It is just a social skill that the children have not mastered yet and we consider it offensive because we as adults always know better and we make the rules.
In Chinese they also have a phrase "ni dzai gan me" which means "what are you doing?" The acceptable way to say this is "ni dzai dzuo shi me?" The children get corrected but it does not mean the first way is wrong. In fact it is a lot more prevalent than the second. It is just slang, the same as lao wai.
My point is you should not get offended by not knowing the language well enough and you should not get offended by not understanding children and how they act and behave.
Just as a last thought. There is a new (not really very new) advertisement of TV with a theme song that has the words Lao wai in it. The meaning is completely different and refers to always eating out. I am mentioning it purely to show how easy a foreigner can misunderstand the intended meaning. Kids in one of my classes sang the song and I thought it was retarded (I think that of most TV ads here) but it had nothing to do with me being a foreigner. Would a foreigner who votes "yes" be able to understand the difference. If they don't, they shouldn't vote "yes".

[parrothead]

I'd just like to thank blackmagicABC for that objective and informative post. I wish more posts were like that.

[BJ]

Whilst I do not agree with the original poster, and agree with Blackmagic, on the question of wei guo ren (foreigner), I must say picking on someones language mistakes which you could clearly read is a little off,

[blackmagicABC]

OK. I agree. I apologize.

[BigWally]

waiguoren, da bei dze (big nose), ah-doh-ah, meiguoren....whatever....

it doesn't matter, typically the best way to diffuse any situation like this is just to turn, and make sure the person knows you heard them, and respond with a "ni hao ma?" and a smile, typically it leads them to be embarrassed for pointing you out...or you'll receive a smile in return...or if its a child who is saying it, then reply with a "hello" and often times the parents will encourage (read: force) their child to reply in English to you

i like propagating the idea that a lot of us foreigners are educated, and friendly people, and not just the beer-swilling, rude, party-animals that many locals think we are

although i have to admit, if i get called meiguoren, i usually correct them and tell them i'm janadaren

[blackmagicABC]

This wouldn't really be applicable to the guys down south but in Taipei many kids can not speak Taiwanese. My favorite is to respond to them in Taiwanese because the parents will laugh and the kids would say they don't understand or more ask their parents "What did he say?" This is more of a joke than anything else.
As for the rude beer drinking foreigners over here (said while sipping my Taiwan beer) priceless. They should call some of the foreigners here jiu gui. It would be much more applicable.

[Ki]

I have no probs being called wei guo ren. I am a foreigner after all. The Taiwanese a-do-a is quite cute sometimes. I point back and with a shocked expression say tai wan ren.

But i do get offended when called mei guo ren. As BigWally said, just correct them back. No, actually not all foreigners are american.

[TaoyuanSteve]

I answered no. Although I find myself annoyed by the over-use of these words-- and not every instance of their use is meant to be entirely polite-- there is nothing inherently offensive about either of the terms in question.

The terms in question are wai4guo2ren2: 外國人 and lao3wai4: 老外. The first directly denotes "foreigner--" literally: outside country person. The second is an informal construction, using the word for old (lao3) and an abbreviation for foreigner (wai4). Actually, in Chinese, when "old" is placed before a person's name, it's usually done to express closeness or personal warmth. A Chinese might refer to his/her long time friend, surnamed Wang (王), as lao3wang2 (老王). The point being, here, that there is nothing contained in the terms themselves that would make them insults. *I don't mean to suggest, however, that lao3wai4 is as affectionate a term as one used to describe a friend-- it isn't. Probably the best English equivalent I've seen is the term "gringo--" a term that is neither fully positive nor negative-- it can be either. Context and intent are everything.

I think, as expats from modern-day western societies, we are used to more multicultural settings. The Chinese, in their tendencies toward stating what's in front of their noses, occasionally offend our sensibilities with their plain talk, state the obvious style. They say we are foreigners, well, because we are. They see it and express it. Perhaps it is the expression part of the equation that irks us most. We are trained to be more sensitive and therefore feel less comfortable calling a fat person fat, a black person black or a foreigner a foreigner. There's something about being called a foreigner constantly that offends our cultural mores.

So what do we do? I suggest that we need to collectively grow thicker hides and learn to look at the intention behind words, rather than the words themselves. Further, we should make sure we know enough about the language and culture to make accurate judgement calls concerning terms like these, their use and their intentions. Sometimes knowing a little Chinese is worse than knowing none at all. Ultimately, I advocate patience over reactivity.

[blackmagicABC]

Well stated. Love the post especially the part about knowing just a little Chinese and then instantly jumping to a conclusion.

[stunnershades]

I was talking with a Taiwanese friend and I asked her, just after a little girl had noticed me and yelled "waigouren", "Do you think little kids would say that about the Vietnamese or Filipinos here in Taiwan?" She said no. If not, I would conclude that, although this word does mean Foreigner in Chinese, that the children are generally referring to the European looking Foreigners. Correct me if this is an untrue assumption but I always think of myself back home pointing at a black person saying "mommy a black person!" Then, my mom would be embarrassed. She'd correct me and say its not polite to point and yell at people. Thats what irks me, but I'm admittedly culture-centric. I think of myself back home yelling "Konichiwa!" at a random Asian person and having them just shake their heads confused at me. I've had the Taiwanese make an a$$ out of me,(not hard to do) countless times for being "waigouren" but I never see them react to the large Filipino population in my city.

[blackmagicABC]

You conclude incorrectly.
Wai Guo Ren means foreigner. Outside Country People.
Now the second question is would they call Vietnamese for example foreigner? Well if they apply for a visa I can not see how they are considered locals (Ben Guo Ren or Ben Ren). Therefore, yes they would in certain situations. Would they walk up to a Vietnamese person and say "wai guo ren". No, but that does not alter the meaning of the word. It just means that you are easily recognisable as a foreigner and they are not.
The original question is "Do you get offended if a kid calls you Wai Guo Ren?" The next question obviously is "Do you get offended by what kids say" and the next "DO you really know what the word means?"
Your friend is not wrong in saying that kids wouldn't call a Vietnamese Wai Guo Ren but your assumption that it doesn't apply to Vietnamese people is not correct. Go to the department of Foreign Affairs (Wai Jiao Bu) and ask the officials there what they call Vietnamese people.

[TaoyuanSteve]

[SanChong]

I was going to write a longer response, but I entirely agree with what Steve wrote. "Lao Wai" did used to be offensive, but it's worked it's way into common speech and isn't meant to be offensive anymore. It's just a way of acknowledging they see a foreigner. If you grew up in a homogenous society, different looking people would be interesting to you as well.

It might be rude and a little annoying to be single out that way, but it's all well intentioned.

After all, what's really important? The words, or the intentions of the person saying them? Taiwanese people very rarely have any ill intentions towards foreigners. It might be annoying or frustrating to be singled out, but they mean well.

As Steve said, we are foreigners in their country. That carries responsibilities as well. Even when I'm frustrated, I feel an obligation to assume the best of Taiwanese people first, rather than assuming something negative.