Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Tömer Turkish Language Course. Student complaints....
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Turkey
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 12395
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:27 am    Post subject: He didn't seem to like Canada much either. Reply with quote

"He didn't seem to like Canada much either."says Yaramaz of the spook.

The perpetually miserable pedagogue is, alas a type we find in disproportionate numbers in the world of TESOL. It could be that ghost is one of these. People are unhappy and think a geographical change will transform them into happy people. It doe not work.

Caelum non animum mutat qui trans mare currit. "The heavens do not change the soul of the one who flees across the sea."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ghost



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1335
Location: Saudi Arabia

PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:42 am    Post subject: Turkish work habits Reply with quote

13 hour days 6 days a week?....well yes some store owners have long days, but one would hardly call this work...in fact there is such a grey area between work and play in Turkey that the two are often inextricably linked.

Look at the classic market (corner store) owner who does spend 15 hours a day at the store. But this is where he wants to be. He just goes into cruise control most of the time. Making a few sales here and there, but mostly chatting with friends who come to visit, playing cards, watching the t.v. etc...not too much sweat or stress there is there? You see these types of scenarios all over Turkey.

One postee on this forum may have a gut defensive reaction because she recognizes some Turkish traits in herself. Yes...it is all good to have a good relaxed time, but at the end of your stay here, what have you learned and improved on?

Also. A former ESL teacher in Kayseri found out the true meaning of Turkish 'friendship' when he was told by his Kayseri 'friends' that he would be welcome to stay at any of the houses of these 'friends' should the need for accommodation arise. When the ESL teacher came back from his summer break these 'friends' then told him that there was nowhere for him to stay. This was an ESL teacher who had literally spent huge amounts of cash dining and entertaining these 'turkish friends' over the course of the previous academic year. So much for the Turkish brand of friendship...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
samet



Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 12
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Visits to several Universities in Turkey showed one that most students are not ambitious. If you talk with professors who work in most faculties they will tell you that most (yes that word again) students do not push themselves and just do the minimum to get their degree. These students are more concerned with social activities. Many of the students confess to hating reading as an activity


I daresay this could be an observation of univeristies in the part of the world in which I presently teach...the Far East. Here in Japan we refer to university life as a "socialisation process". Frankly Ghost, I don't understand what is wrong with a different attitude, you are after all a 'guest' in the country. Sure, at times things get a little stressful when the world does't see things through our own eyes but I can think of nothing much nicer than chilling out with a nice Raki, some Turkish music and a bit of laughter. Consider yourself one of the lucky ones Ghost. Try living in this crazy country where there is the illusion that there is always work being done.

You should perhaps try to practise some tolerance, brother. And besides...if you don't like the fire, stay out of the kitchen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yaramaz



Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 2345
Location: Not where I was before

PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A former ESL teacher in Kayseri found out the true meaning of Turkish 'friendship' when he was told by his Kayseri 'friends' that he would be welcome to stay at any of the houses of these 'friends' should the need for accommodation arise. When the ESL teacher came back from his summer break these 'friends' then told him that there was nowhere for him to stay. This was an ESL teacher who had literally spent huge amounts of cash dining and entertaining these 'turkish friends' over the course of the previous academic year. So much for the Turkish brand of friendship...


Ghost, I am very reluctent to comment on your statement about this because the teacher you speak of is one of my best friends here in Turkey, and his situation was far more complex than you have portrayed it. I was deep in the thick of it all so I know. What people must realize is that this person was fired from the school during his summer holidays. Not the most ethical approach a school could take, but this does factor in to his abandonment. The friends who abandoned him were all teachers at the school and they were scared they'd lose their jobs too if they were found to be taking his side in a very heated battle. This school can be very petty that way. You also failed to mention Ugur, our friend who works 13 hour shifts as a waiter at the Hilton for a piddly salary, who took him in and looked after him for a week, getting up early after a night shift to make him breakfast. Or Ayben and her family, or Sevil and her family, or the uncle of a student of his from last year who not only looked after him but who also hired and paid for a lawyer to represent him. These amazing, generous people and many others did everything they could to help him. Yes, he wined and dined some teachers and thought they were his friends and it is frustrating to learn that generosity does not always buy you friendship. You find such unloyal sponges all over the world.

Ghost, I honestly don't think you know what you are talking about most of the time. Go get a desk job in a nice cubicle somewhere and continue your joyless, cranky, xenophobic life away from other people, as you so obviously loathe joyful human interaction.

PS Re: working hours. My friend Egemen works 13 hour days 6 days a week as an engineer for a petrol company. He's very dedicated, usually exhausted. I tutor two doctors who put in 60 hour weeks. I also teach managers and designers and salespeople and marketers, etc, who all work 50 or 60 intense hours a week, juggling work and family. The teachers here at my school are hard working and dedicated and are constantly working, preparing lessons and tests, etc. Dont tell me I'm just imagining things. These are my friends.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FGT



Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 761
Location: Turkey

PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2003 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Ghost,
Previously I urged everyone to lay off you because I felt sorry for you; I thought that Turkey hadn't worked for you and that you needed some space and understanding to get on with your life. However, you have come back for more, you persist in slagging off Turks and Turkey and yet you insist in staying here. I cannot desist any longer!

Regarding your comment about the lazy bakkal owner who only goes in to work in order to demonstrate his authority and ownership and spends his time chatting with friends, drinking tea, playing backgammon etc. Isn't it equally possible that this is someone who has invested his all in a small shop, who desperately wants to make it work but is suffering from the economic situation and is doing everything he can to make ends meet (by staying open long hours etc) but is trying to put a brave face on things; even while his business is at risk of going under, he still enjoys the company of friends and appreciates the little things in life?

As far as the teacher you mention who was let down when he attempted to take up the offer of hospitality is concerned, (disregarding Yaramaz's comments) I find it telling that you think it important to mention the huge amounts of money he had spent on the other people involved. Does that matter? Maybe it's detrimental - Turks have their pride you know. I think there was something other than fickleness going on.

On a more positive note, I congratulate you on your staying power, I appreciate you livening up the Turkish forum, and the offer to meet up if ever you're in Izmir still holds.

Finally, which is more important - language or understanding? You claim to be learning the Turkish language but I think you have very little understanding of Turks and Turkey.

EXCUSE THE RANT (I wrote and then thought why should I? Left both in)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ghost



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1335
Location: Saudi Arabia

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2003 10:46 am    Post subject: Turkey...thoughts Reply with quote

Depicting one as the proverbial 'ugly American' is easy to do, without adequate reflection.

Ok, you want some positives..here we go.

1. Turks are generally friendly, although many times it is a superficial, self-serving kind of friendship. Many Turks like to keep a 'foreign friend' because it is something of a prestige symbol to be with a foreigner. Most Turks who spend time with foreigners have little in common and the relationship is usually based on money or sex or a combination of both.

Turks, like most people the world over, prefer their own. Most Turks find foreigners boring because of the cultural differences. If you go into a Turkish cafe where there are foreigners present you will often hear the waiters talking among themselves and openly criticizing the foreign women who are present, claiming that they are 'fat' and 'ugly.' These waiters are stupid enough to assume that all foreigners speak no Turkish. Of course this does not stop these brain dead waiters from trying to screw the foreign women (in all the ways that you can imagine including the bed variety) should the occasion present itself.

Another favourite pastime of these waiters is to categorize nationalities by the way they leave tips in the restaurants etc.. They will say that all Israelis in Antalya are mean, for example, because they don't leave tips and ask for outlines of the prices before consuming. This type of thing is very common here.

2. It is a remarkably safe country where you stand little chance of ever being mugged or assaulted in the streets. This goes for almost everywhere in Turkey. This is in contrast to countries in Central and South America, with similar GDP's, where venturing out into the streets at night would be considered foolish and dangerous.

3. Among the best foods in the world with plenty of variety.

4. Great scenery and a variety of climates.

5. Interesting history etc..if you are a culture vulture and interested in that sort of thing. Unfortunately all the architectural feats of the past are not reflected in present day Turkey, where those with money and power prefer to build and invest in huge/impersonal type shopping malls. Ditto goes for the average Turk who has absolutely no interest in visiting all the historical masterpieces of the past.

6. One of the few Muslim countries in the world where the foreigner does not feel victimized for not being a Muslim. And that is very positive. Of course one should recognize that since most Turks are not conservative Musims themselves, it is not very difficult for them to adopt these attitudes. Still it is good for the foreigners who visit here. There is no problem for foreigners to eat during the day during this Ramadan period...all the more so since such a large number of Turks are also not conforming to the Koran dictates.

7. One of the best countries in the world for ESL 'teachers' (or those purporting to be) to pick up a job with free accommodation and a salary twice as much (on average) as that of a local teacher. There are not many other places where basically unskilled backpackers (other than the nebulous 'skill' of being able to speak their mother tongue) can get this kind of deal. These 'teachers' are pretty lucky in that sense, for sure.

So there you go. To be objective one needs to keep one's eyes open, and that includes both the positives and negatives. All the above does not stop one from thinking that many Turks have a kind of barbarian core beneath the superficial friendliness they display to foreigners. Even Turks themselves will admit that one of the national characteristics here is known as 'first and second face.'
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
dmb



Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2003 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was positive?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yaramaz



Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 2345
Location: Not where I was before

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2003 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you just use the term 'barbarian' to describe an entire nation? Is it still the year 638AD or has my watch stopped?

Stop them before they breach the gates of Vienna! Those marauding Turks will stop at nothing to achieve their goal of.... oh, wait- Turks have no goals because they're all lazy, pointless, two-faced losers who couldn't be bothered to pick up a book let alone cause harm to more productive, honest, and intelligent nations.

O, ghost, ghost, ghost. I have no idea what I could possibly say to you now. You are determined to see things in a very specific light and nothing else will offer illumination or alternatives. Go drink some tea, chill out, and realize that 'ambition' means different things to different people. You claimed a few posts ago that no one who comes to Turkey will emerge having acquired skills or improved oneself (What is this? Miss Brody's Finishing School for Girls??). I beg to differ. I won't list all the things turkey has done for me but it has been a good move, a productive move for me. No regrets.

Oh--And don't you dare infer yet again that my colleagues and I are all lazy, spoiled, overpaid, stupid, flaky backpackers who arent worthy to kiss your glorious BA, BEd, and Masters degree. I think you like to collect qualifications but not knowledge or wisdom or experience. Hence the obsession with the Tomer courses juxtaposed with your unwillingness to see the Turkish point of view, the turkish way of life. Have you met any turks that you like or are they all out to get you? Why have Imet so many open, giving, smart, creative, honest people and you havent? Am I hoarding them?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ghost



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1335
Location: Saudi Arabia

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2003 8:14 pm    Post subject: Civil Service time wasters Reply with quote

A judges' clerk in Antalya confessed to this poster how his fellow workers clock into work in the morning and then basically disappear for hours on end to other parts of the building for chats with other employees in the building. This individual says that this type of behaviour is typical of Turkish civil service employees throughout the nation.

Cheating on exams and incompetent doctors: Happens all the time here. If you check into a hospital here you may as well say a big prayer because you stand a fair chance of being treated by a charlatan. How does this happen? Simple...during the course of medical studies in this country many students pay others to take exams for them. Professors are also willing to accept money on a frequent basis to award undeserved grades. If you have doubts. Go to any University student and she/he will confirm the above. Same goes for totally incompetent lawyers who qualified under dubious conditions. Speak to any Turks about these things and they will tell you.

Yeah...cheating occurs everywhere...but in Turkey, it's a big problem. It's in the genes and chromosomes of the people and that will not change.

'Barbarians'....cruel but true. By the way did you see (the reports on Turkish t.v.) how those students at different Universities in Ankara were brutally beaten by baton charging policemen, because they (the students) had dared to express dissatisfaction with some of the reforms currently taking place in Turkish Universities?

Do you also notice how average Turks mistreat innocent dogs and cats who live in the street, often kicking and throwing stones at them? The same goes for the way poor street children are abused in this country by the police and ordinary civilians. If this occured in countries most of us hail from the perpetrators of these crimes would have to answer to justice in a severe way.

Turkish drivers: Highly irresponsible and dangerous. In Antalya, traffic accidents are so common, that victims rarely report them to their insurance companies because their premiums would become too high. The turks usually arrange to settle matters on the spot with money (and sometimes fisticuffs). Dangerous driving is just one example of the lack of regard turks have for others. Crossing the dual carriageway at Migros in Antalya is an exercise in courage because the cars zoom along at speeds of up to 120km an hour in a zone where pedestrians need to cross and where a normal speed of 30km/hour should be called for. Of course little or no provisions are made for the pedestrians who need to cross the dangerous dual carriageway.

Total lack of civility on the sidwalks. Did you ever see the Turkish habit of a group of up to 10 Turks hogging the entire sidewalk? If a lone 'yabanci' or any other person happens to be walking in the other direction she/he is out of luck because the group will not budge or reduce their width. The lone individual has to step into the road to pass, with the risk the cars pose.

Cultural differences yes...but when you live the above on a frequent basis surely a sense of frustration is not an untoward reaction?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
yaramaz



Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 2345
Location: Not where I was before

PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Cultural differences yes...but when you live the above on a frequent basis surely a sense of frustration is not an untoward reaction?


I've lived amongst all this on a longer basis than you and I have yet to feel such rage and condescention towards an entire nation. I felt more frustration in London, where crowds never budged on sidewalks and where cars regularly tried to kill me. And all the lying and backstabbing and shoddy workmanship.... Don't get me started on the UK... Shocked
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 12395
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 10:40 am    Post subject: Xenophobes Reply with quote

It seems to me that this correspondence from "ghost" provides us all with an object lesson.

Some people should stay at home.

The Greeks have a word for people who think and speak and act like "ghost".

XENOPHOBES
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ghost



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1335
Location: Saudi Arabia

PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 11:00 am    Post subject: Behaviour Reply with quote

Why should foreigners who work overseas bury their heads in the sand and accept reprehensible forms of behaviour?

On that topic there is a word, also, for people who just 'go with the flow' and never think about the bigger picture.

It would be prudent for some people to open their eyes to what is going on around here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
yaramaz



Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 2345
Location: Not where I was before

PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
On that topic there is a word, also, for people who just 'go with the flow' and never think about the bigger picture.

It would be prudent for some people to open their eyes to what is going on around here.


And what word might this be? And who are you to decide what the bigger picture is? Who said those who go with the flow have their eyes shut? Mine are wide open and I see both good and bad and agreeable and disagreeable, as well as familiar and strange.... And I live in and amongst it all. I don't accept everything people do here, but I also don't spend hours ranting and raving about perceived injustices and barbarities I witness. It's all part of life, especially life lived in a country that is not your own. I think you need to move to Surrey or Sussex and reacquaint yourself with the mind numbing normalcy and gentility you'll find. Plenty of Protestant Work Ethic to be found. I think you'd fit in. No dog kickers or lazy loungers there!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 12395
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 1:15 pm    Post subject: ghostly thoughts Reply with quote

We should start a collection to pay for ghost's one-way ticket from Eskisheir to Bognor Regis. I am sure that he would be happy there - until he spots a foreigner.

The alternative would be to buy him a Webley Service Revolver with one round.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
yaramaz



Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 2345
Location: Not where I was before

PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was actually thinking that Worthing in West Sussex might be apt. I don't there are any foreigners there at all.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Turkey All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 2 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2011 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Road2Spain - TEFL and Spanish with one year student visa
EBC