Job Discussion Forums

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Dear Readers,

I may be out of line with this post, and it's not my intention to be patronizing...but here goes.

It seems to me that the vast majority of posts here on Dave's are written in a professional, insightful and interesting manner. Lately, however, I have noticed a disturbing increase in the amount of sarcastic, mean-spirited, even downright hateful... posts and replies.

Granted, this is an 'open' forum... comprised of highly unique, vocal and diverse people, and disagreements between us are bound to arise. I accept that. What I don't understand (or accept) is the disrespectful, hostile manner of "bashing" people with whom we share this profession.

We are all in this "rickety" ESL boat together, and I think we *all* have valuable opinions and experiences to share with each other. In that vein, Robert Russell recently posted a thread about how we can "increase the professionalism of ESL". For me, the buck stops here. Today. With your next post. If we can't treat each other with a little respect, why on earth would we expect our employers to do so?

Personally, I love teaching English. I've been doing it now for over a decade, and plan to continue doing it as long as I can. It has given me opportunities and opened doors to places I never dreamed I would see. Red Square on New Year's Eve, The Berlin Wall, The underground tunnels along the DMZ, the lush jungles of the Philippines, Mt. Fuji, Count Dracula's castle in Romania...and too many more to mention here. For that, I am very thankful, and willing... to share my experiences and modest advice here with total strangers. It gives me great pleasure to "give back" a little of what I've "taken".

I come here to this forum almost every day... to relax, learn and enjoy what others have to say. All I'm asking is this: Before you 'jump' to the keyboard with a nasty remark, think about the feelings of those you are replying to. You can disagree with someone without resorting to "roller-derby" tactics. (for those of you old enough to remember roller-derby!) I disagree with people all the time, without feeling the need to humiliate them. Am I out of line?

Peace,

Kent F. Kruhoeffer
Samara, Russia
20 February 2003

[ZIA!]

Kent,

I agree with you 100%. I am also noticing this trend. I am glad that someone stood up and addressed it. I believe in debate, discussion and even arguments, but prefer they are kept in a Civil vein. That has been one of the reasons I also come to this forum on a regular basis to read what people are thinking and discussing. I generally do not add so much, because I feel there are many people here that are quite adept at presenting well thought out replies. However, when it starts to degenerate into craziness...I start thinking two things, one, these folks must feel frustrated in their daily lives and this is a place to let off steam, or that I should just go back to watching novellas...LOL

Will continue to read and watch to see how things develop.
Beijos
Zia

[bnix]

I think your remarks are well intentioned...but I do not think people will change.Some of the remarks,although they may sound mean-spirited..are legitimate criticisms.Of course,some of them ARE mean-spirited,too.There is a LOT of RAGE in this profession,and when someone gets the shaft from(for example) some private school owner and cannot really do much about it,he or she jumps on the board and takes out the hostility on other teachers.It is venting that gets too personal at times.

And of course,you have the trolls,who are basically just bored troublemakers,who try to stir up an argument on the board because they have nothing better to do.

I think legitimate criticisms are okay as long as they don't become personal,as they do sometimes.

[Ann]

Boy, aren't you optimistic!

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Thank you ZIA!, bnix and Ann, for your comments and thoughts. Am I an optimist? Sure I am. It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it.

Remember, Rome wasn't built in a day.

Do I have any illusions about all of us sitting down around the campfire... toasting weenies and singing "Kum-ba-ya My Lord"? No, of course not. My optimism is actually shrouded under a heavy veil of reality; I know this will not happen overnight.

Small steps taken are better than none taken at all.

Warmest regards,
kent

[Ann]

Kent,
My remark was addressed to bnix, not you.

[bnix]

Ann,
This remark is addressed to you.If I saw more reasons to be optimistic,I would be optimistic.One of the continuing problems in this field is the fact that a lot of people "decide"to teach English because they have nothing better to do,want to fart around in Europe,Asia(or fill in the blank) for a year,or are running away from something:the law,an unhappy"relationship" ,or themselves.

I consider it being realistic,not pessimistic.You only have to check out some of the posts to see some of the kinds of people who are"teaching" overseas,people who often stridently defend their"right" to teach English,even though many are unqualified,and in some cases do not even speak fluent English.

How long have you been in this field,anyway?

[dduck]

[johnyarrington]

Hi all,

I agree with Kent's original posting of 22 Jan. completely. As we are all professionals (or should be), we should act accordingly. To tell you the truth, I stopped adding to the other.........(I can't really remember the name of it, but I think it was the other....general Job Discussion Forum) because so many people were so personal, so back-biting, so......I dunno,
ANGRY!, I guess. I still do have a couple under, "Saudi Arabia", but I haven't for a long time, 'cause people just go so weird.

One of the things that has always bothered me is SPELING!! And GRAMMER! Don't people proofread these things they write?! What would you do if a student turned in a paper with some of the lousy grammar, run-on sentences, and unclear expression that we've seen here? I would correct it.

And why don't people sign their real names, instead of all this cutesy stuff? And say where they are?

My name is John Yarrington. I've been working at the IPA in Riyadh for 8 years. It's a good job.

[justynak]

[johnslat]

Dear justynak,
I strongly suspect that johnyarrington was being " ironic " there. Not only was " SPELING " misspelled, but " GRAMMER " was, as well. And " AND GRAMMER " is, of course, a sentence fragment. Plus all of the " mistakes " were even in CAPITALS. Besides, I know John; he's a colleague here at the IPA. And he's REALLY not as dumb as he looks ( Hi, John ).
Regards,
John

[bnix]

Hi,John
I read and enjoyed your post.I am glad you are enjoying the job in Saudi.I used to work there years ago(but not at IPA).

John,you state rhetorically in your post"we are all professionals"...John,I wish everyone in this field were professionals...but it is a sad fact that they aren't.....

Just to post a recent and illustrative example....a "teacher" posted in another thread on this forum about contemplating a "fine p---- of Polish a--"(referring to students)Professional?No way.And that is just one example.A lot of them are NOT professional and do not act professionally, John.If everyone behaved like a professional...then we could have a kinder,gentler forum.Some of them deserve nothing but....our contempt.And really,they are not even worth that.Sad,but true.

As for your other question regarding why people do not use their real names (and email addresses?) when posting on this forum....there are several reasons....some spurious and some very legitimate reasons.

Of course,some people want to criticize their current school or boss on this forum,but disguise their identity so they will not have to take the fall.Some people are probably a bit reluctant(ashamed?) to use their true identity when posting some material.

But there are also legitimate reason for not using you real name and address on this board.Recruiters,other spammers,miscellaneous n'eer-do-wells,etc.surf a board like this seeing "what they can pick up"...so people do not use real names or email addresses for that reason.

Also,if you use your real name and email address and post an opinion that is unpopular with other people,you are inviting a large amount of intrusive(sometimes abusive,obscene and harrassing) mail to your box.This is probably the best reason for not using your true identity.

There was a long thread on this subject on the old discussion forum some months ago.One poster even stated that he/she had used the real identity and email...and somehow a stalker had managed to find out the home address and had begun a stalking campaign.

Again,I enjoyed reading your post.

[Ann]

bnix,
Not that I want to appear hostile, but aren't you judgmental?
Who are you to say why teachers join this field whatever their motives may be? Who are you to discourage anyone from pursuing their career in any field whether they are qualified or not? They will find out anyway. They didn't ask you, did they?
I think you come off as being an extremely arrogant poster and your remarks are never useful, only derogatory.
I have been in the field long enough, so you can continue rolling your eyes.

[bnix]

So,you don't want to"appear hostile"? Well,Ann,you could have fooled me!
You stated "Not that I want to be hostile,but aren't you judgmental?"Later on in your post you call me "arrogant"?Now wait,Ann,who is being "judgmental" now?Are people "arrogant" when they don't agree with you?Apparently,you want to "have it both ways."

I really wish my remarks would discourage at least one of the so called"teachers"(i.e. unqualified,know-it-all misfits) from going into this profession.Realisticallv,I know better.That would be too good to be true.And your assertion that they"will find out on their own"(that they are not really cut out to be teachers)......Well,I agree,some find out....and some NEVER do.You are giving a lot of them more credit than they deserve.

And yes,it is MY business.Because that type of "teachers" give the profession a bad name,give a bad image of their home countries...and many times are just....a disgrace.Not always,but too often.

Any way,Ann,no hard feelings.Best of luck in your field.It is ESL,right?and you know,all of that name calling...arrogant...all of that ...does not bother me in the least.Although I am continually amazed at some of the people "teaching" in this profession.

[itslatedoors]

Dear Ann ,I agree with your comments about bnix's posts.I'm in the Middle East right now and have been here for several years.Fortunately,I'm in one of the liberal states so life is fairly normal.Bnix stated that he has worked in the 'magic kingdom',commonly known to non vets as Saudi Arabia.We make jokes about the teachers who come out of that space time continuum as many are clearly warped by their experiences there. Perhaps bnix has just had some rotten times and the poor fella is just feeling permanently cynical. My time in Poland ,(he and Swindells often post about the place),was great and I'm planning to return some day with my Polish wife and son.And.. finally,for those of you still in Saudi,enjoy your 'cid' ,don't bash off too often,avoid being shot and may you live long and well in your cosy grow bags 'insh'Allah'.