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[johnslat]

Dear Bamby,

You wrote:

"You have to use the apostrophe when you use an independent clause with an dependent clause. What you did has nothing to do with a modifier."

Where is that elusive "dependent clause" that you mention?

Regards,
John

[Bamby]

[johnslat]

Dear Bamby,

"Closer and closer becomes the dependent clause and yes it is a phrase."


Sorry to be so persistent, but (and you knew there was a "but" coming, didn't you?) a clause is NOT a phrase. A independent clause is a sentence. A dependent clause MUST have a subject and a verb but no complete thought.
A phrase (such as "closer and closer") has NO subject, NO verb, and NO complete thought.

Phrases and clauses are separate entities.

And "Our lives are closer and closer together" makes sense to me. You wouldn't want a comma after "closer and closer" because those words modify "together."

Regards,,
John

[Bamby]

[johnslat]

Dear Bamby

OK, I'll give it one more (and last) try:

"A dependent clause do not need a subject and a verb (WRONG); in that case it will make its own complete sentence.(NO - "When I got home" is a dependent clause; it is NOT a sentence) It is a dependent clause because "Our lives are together" is a complete sentence making it independent. It does not need "Closer and closer". However, Closer and closer needs 'Our lives are together' making it dependent. "Our lives are together" can stand on its own; you do not need closer and closer. Closer and closer can not stand on its own- it will need a complete sentence such as "Our lives are together". There is a such thing as dependent phrase.(YES, there is, BUT a dependent PHRASE is NOT the same as a dependent CLAUSE) Subjects and verbs makes complete sentence and can stand on its own. For example... Come here. That has a verb and subject thus it is complete."

Bamby, I suspect that English is not your native tongue. Please read the information below:


Clauses and Phrases

To understand punctuation, it is helpful to understand the difference between a phrase and a clause.

I. A phrase is a collection of words that may have nouns or verbals, but it does not have a subject doing a verb. The following are examples of phrases:

leaving behind the dog
smashing into a fence
before the first test
after the devastation
between ignorance and intelligence
broken into thousands of pieces
because of her glittering smile
In these examples above, you will find nouns (dog, fence, test, devastation, ignorance, intelligence, thousands, pieces). You also have some verbals (leaving, smashing), but in no case is the noun functioning as a subject doing a predicate verb. They are all phrases.

II. A clause is a collection of words that has a subject that is actively doing a verb. The following are examples of clauses:

since she laughs at diffident men
I despise individuals of low character
when the saints go marching in
Obediah Simpson is uglier than a rabid racoon
because she smiled at him.
In the examples above, we find either a noun or a pronoun that is a subject (bold-print and red) attached to a predicate verb (underlined and purple) in each case:

since she laughs at diffident men
I despise individuals of low character
when the saints go marching in
Obediah Simpson is uglier than a rabid racoon
because she smiled at him
III. If the clause could stand by itself, and form a complete sentence with punctuation, we call the clause an independent clause. The following are independent clauses:
I despise individuals of low character
Obediah Simpson is uglier than a rabid racoon
We could easily turn independent clauses into complete sentences by adding appropriate punctuation marks. We might say, "I despise individuals of low character." Or we might write, "Obediah Simpson is uglier than a rabid racoon!" We call them independent because these types of clauses can stand independently by themselves, without any extra words attached, and be complete sentences.

IV. Dependent clauses have a subject doing a verb, but they have a subordinate conjunction placed in front of the clause. That subordinate conjunction means that the clause can't stand independently by itself and become a complete sentence. Instead, the dependent clause is dependent upon another clause--it can't make a complete sentence by itself, even though it has a subject doing a verb. Here are some examples of dependent clauses:

since she laughs at diffident men
when the saints go marching in
because she smiled at him

These clauses simply do not form complete thoughts or sentences by themselves. Those subordinate conjunctions--since, when, and because--cause the listener to expect some extra material. The thought is incomplete. If you walked up to a friend in the dorms and said, "since she laughs at diffident men," and then walked away without adding an independent clause, the friend would be completely baffled.

http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/gram_clauses_n_phrases.html

Regards,
John

[arioch36]

John

[Stephen Jones]

Can you tell me a context arioch in which a dependent clause on its own would be permissible in spoken English but not in written English?

Are you sure you're not simply referring to the fact they put a full stop after one, which is a question of punctuation.

[arioch36]

Stephen Jones

[johnslat]

Dear Stephen,
I may not understand your question correctly, but it seems to me that in "oral English" (i.e. dialogue), all of us often speak in phrases and dependent clauses, especially in response to questions:

"Where's the teacher?"

"In the classroom."

or

"Why did you do that?"

"Because I wanted to."

I think a problem can sometimes arise when students read dialogue, see phrases and dependent clauses being treated as sentences (i.e. beginning with capital letters and having end marks) and can get confused as to what constitutes a sentence in written English (first letter capital, subject, verb, complete thought, end mark.)
In fact, Bamby's confusion may be an illustration of this very problem.
Regards,
John

[Stephen Jones]

You are correct John. But writing the examples you chose does not make them any less grammatical. or less optimal.

But I want to know is what arioch's students are writing. Is he setting them compositions and they're just replying in single dependent clauses? I'd have thought there'd have been more problem with that than with the 'lack of grammar'.

If students are not punctuating correctly, then that is a problem with teaching punctuation. It has nothing to do with 'grammar'. And it has nothing to do with oral English.

[arioch36]

Jones

[johnslat]

It seems to me that while Stephen is likely theoretically correct, arioch36 is
(I can't resist) practically correct.
Most of us directly or indirectly "teach to the test", and, as arioch36 points out, all the tests of written English I've ever encountered would "deduct points" for "incorrect sentences" such as, "Because he didn't see me."
So while that example may not be "any less grammatical or less optimal,"
any student who wrote it as a sentence on any writing test I know about would "suffer the consequences."
Regards,
John

[arioch36]

PS

I do talk about different styles of writing, and when writing "Stop!" is effective and proper. Don't think it is the point here.

PPS If you want to get twisted, you could argue on one hand


"Our nation is becoming greater and greater. Because we have the Olympics this summer. "

Is correct grammatically, just that the period should be a comma, and the B should not be capitalized. And on another hand, for some poorer Chinese students, not a totally abstract question

But on the gripping hand... still wrong on the test!

[Bamby]

Johnslat, you are beginning to confuse me. Please don't lecture me on clause, phrase, dependent clause, etc... Back to what you wrote, I already explained why closer and closer was dependent and needed a independent sentence to make it complete. This will never end if I get into depth about complete sentences consisting of subject, verbs, and even objects. I already know what a phrase is; I already know what a clause is. Please don't lecture me on such. I am talking about sentence A and Sentence B that you wrote. What I explained stands. You need to rewrite it, add commas, or omit the word 'together'.

[johnslat]

Dear Bamby,
OK - I give up. This is going nowhere. I have neither the time nor the inclination to teach you, especially since you seem so determined not to learn.
If you want to continue this, PM me, but I'm finished here.
Regards,
John