Job Discussion Forums

Gary B · Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 35

Wha'z up?
Sunpower has made the most sense that I've read in awhile along with Mr. Doors. That's exactly it! There are people like Bnix who insist they are professionals when they are really not and the only way they can justify themselves as being PROFESSIONALS is by criticizing other people's life styles while teaching. As far as lawyers go, you can argue all day long about the MORALITY of the profession, but it's still a profession. As far as Tokyo Liz's comment about not dating students it should be up to you, your student(s), and any policy the place of employment has regarding any code of conduct. I've always maintained it's a difficult balance, but to say someone isn't PROFESSIONAL because they date their students is being overly judgemental without knowing the circumstance. I've also maintained if the relationship, sexual or otherwise, negatively interferes with the rest of the class or group, than maybe the priorities of the instructor are not in the right order. By the way, I love teaching ESL/EFL and finishing my Masters, but I don't look down on other travelers as being UNPROFESSIONAL if they want to teach EFL. I also do not agree it is a REAL PROFESSION and I personally do not believe one has to have a Masters to teach ESL/EFL, it also depends on what type of ESL/EFL class you're teaching.
Chow for Now,
To Date Or Not To Date Students That Was The Question From Motown Gary B.

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

Come to think of it -
dating is forbidden even to students! Dating is forbidden not only to teachers but to students dating fellow-students as well as students dating their teachers!

bnix · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 645

I really think Gary B.means "ciao",which means "so long", or "goodbye " in Italian....not "chow"(food) Laughing

Of course,Paul might be correct.Maybe Gary B.DOES work at a culinary school/English school."Okay.class,chow for now" Laughing

In one of his recent posts,Gary B. said "There are a lot of people taking teaching(???? taking teaching???) overseas because they don't know what the hell they want to do and can't make it at home so they decide to teach English and call it a profession.Are you one of them?"(referring to bnix).

No,"Chowman"...I am not "one of them".I have the requisite qualifications including a masters in ESL from an accredited university(not one of those on- line things and not one of those two week things,but a real degree) plus plenty of experience teaching in several different countries.I CHOOSE to teach overseas because I want to teach overseas.Although,frankly,it is looking a little depressing,especially due to the fact that a lot of people are trying to "teach" overseas because they can't think of anything better to do...just farting around.So I am considering other options.I know the sleaze factor will continue in this field and I cannot do anything to change it.It will probably never change,except to become worse.

As for your staement that there are a lot of people teaching overseas because they don't know what the hell they want to do and can't make it at home,so they decide to teach English...I agree with that.I have been saying THAT all along.By the way are YOU one of them?Ciao For Now Laughing

Paul G · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 125 Location: China & USA

Bruce:

I was being facetious with the "chow" comment.

I would be willing to bet he means "ciao", I just didn't want to be the one to tell him how to spell it. I thought the "chow for now" comment was an appropriate end to all of his absurd comments. It just kinda put things in perspective. Rolling Eyes

Scott in HK · Joined: 11 Jan 2003 Posts: 148

I think the we can take being a professional off the table for this little dicussion. I don't care whether you consider yourself a professional or not...whether you have paper up the whazoo or are backpacking.

Once you enter the classroom, you are a teacher. Good or bad...papered or not...experienced or otherwise. Once you enter the classroom, you must abide by a few simple rules. One of them is....don't date your students.

It is really simple. Don't do it. It is wrong...we are not talking mass murderer wrong...but it is still wrong.

Make all of the excuses you want....I love them....using the excuses I have heard on this board...I could date one of my students at the secondary school where I work. Some student are twenty years old. So we would be two consenting adults. Heck it doesn't even matter if I am married because if no one finds out, then no one was hurt...therefore I am in the right. I can do anything I want as long as that particular action didn't hurt anyone. Lovely logic...something to truly live by....

wOZfromOZ · Joined: 01 Feb 2003 Posts: 272 Location: Shanghai

This thread been dealt with! .......let's have a laugh for a change hey?

CHINESE PROVERBS

Virginity like bubble, one pxxxk, all gone. (hope that's not in bad taste)

Man who run in front of car get tired

Man who run behind car get exhausted.

Man with hand in pocket feel cocky all day.

Foolish man give wife grand piano, wise man give wife upright organ.

Man who walk through airport turnstile sideways going to Bangkok.

Man with one chopstick go hungry.

Man who scratch ass should not bite fingernails.

Man who eat many prunes get good run for money.

Baseball is wrong: man with four balls cannot walk.

Panties not best thing on earth but next to best thing on earth.

War does not determine who is right, war determine who is left.

Wife who put husband in doghouse soon find him in cat house.

Man who fight with wife all day get no piece at night.

It take many nails to build crib, but one screw to fill it.

Man who drive like hell, bound to get there.

Man who stand on toilet is high on pot.

Man who live in glass house should change clothes in basement.

Man who fish in other man's well often catch crabs.

Man who fart in church sit in own pew.

Crowded elevator smell different to midget

wOZfromOZ
Smile

Gary B · Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 35

Wha'z up?
There is nothing in any rule book that says you can't date students except perhaps the place you work at. I mean what are we, priests or teachers? If a student and a teacher clicks there's nothing wrong with it as long as it doesn't interfere with the treatment of the rest of the students. By the way, Oz is right, this topic has been beaten to death. Bnix I'm so proud of you and impressed! I mean a Masters from an accredited university WWWWOOOOOOWWWWWWWWW that means no backpaper should teach English anywhere near you, heaven forbid should that backpacker even attempt to display any professionalism around you.
Chow for Now,
Burnt Out From This Topic From The Master Of Culinary Arts In Motown Gary B.

bnix · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 645

Gary B. is "burnt out" because he has no adequate response.You will notice he did not answer my question as to whether he is one of "the backpack brigade".Could it be he is one of those people who have no idea what to do with themselves so is just"teaching"(i.e. farting around) overseas?Sounds like it to me.

I think packpackers should stick to....backpacking...and thankfully I am NOT teaching around any of them now...nor do I want to in the future.As to my degree,,,well,I do not expect anyone to be overly impressed.But at least I took the time to get some qualifications,which I bet is more than "Chowman"did.The sleaze factor continues. Laughing

"Teacher" Indeed Laughing

johnslat · Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:54 am Post subject: conflicts of interest

Dear Gary B,
Does " There is nothing in any rule book that says you can't date students except perhaps the place you work at. " mean that you can't/shouldn't date students where you work or that some places may have rules about dating students? But for some of us, the idea of a " rule book " is irrelevant anyway. It's not an " external rule book " that matters, in my opinion, as much as an " internal " one. Dating one of your students would, I'd say, inevitably put a teacher into a " conflict of interest " situation, and I can't imagine any such situation, whether between teacher and student, politician and political contributor, judge and defendant, etc., that would not raise, at the very least, the appearance of being unethical.
Regards,
John

scoobydo · Joined: 22 Feb 2003 Posts: 22 Location: China, Guangzhou

I think this whole "professionalism" question does need a reality check. For a start has anyone remembered the old expression: "those who can do, those who can't teach". We are not starting from a good position.

Teaching ESL is not a profession. Professions have professional bodies. ESL has none. In most counties we are conversation partners. We are seen as being there to get the students to open their mouths. Even our own employers don't often think we are very important when it comes to their students learning English. This is of course a broad generalisation. Teachers in Japanese Universities who are earning a lot of money are professionals but lets face it: most of us are doing a job that could be done to some level of effectiveness by any native speaker.

As a general yardstick you can peg how prestigious your job is by how much you earn. Most ESL instructors don't earn much. I don't view myself as being very important ( although I do try to do a good job and am constantly trying to improve myself ).

If someone is proud of telling others they are a ESL teacher ( in the same way as a lawyer or Doctor is justified to feel ) then sadly they are only kidding themself on. They aren't impressing anyone except themselves and sadly are probably seen as being a little ridiculous by the listener. There is nothing wrong with going through life in our own little bubble of self delusions but it is wrong to use those delusions to attack others who dont attain your own high levels of "professionalism". To use the term scab is even more ridiculous. Scab: Someone who works (or provides workers) during a strike.

I do of course expect to get attacked in the most vicious and abusive manner. Feel free to make wide sweeping generalizations based upon your own, probably false, assumptions about myself.

johnslat · Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 7:03 am Post subject: Appearance and substance

Dear scoobydo,
I'd say that any pride a person might feel should not be in the career he/she happens to have or in how much salary he/she makes, but rather in how well he/she does the job, whatever it is, and in what kind of person he/she is. Those seem, to me, to be the substance; the others matters - type of work, money - are window-dressing.
Regards,
John

Sunpower · Joined: 22 Jan 2003 Posts: 256 Location: Taipei, TAIWAN

Sunpower · Joined: 22 Jan 2003 Posts: 256 Location: Taipei, TAIWAN

Like I said earlier, Asian governments, High Schools and Language Schools are not stupid - They are most likely aware of the fact that most English language "teachers" are a transient and unqualified body of people.

A few of you here are so arrogant to suggest that those not holding masters degrees in ESL from accredited universities should not have the right or privilege to come over and "teach."

If Asian governments continue to hand out "Working Holiday" visas and other work visas to those who are not "real" teachers and language schools continue to hire people lacking in professionalism and qualifications, then they should be prepared to suffer the consequences.

I believe that most language schools in Asia have no attractive qualities to offer real professionals. As a result, very few professionals are teaching in Asia. I don't think this will change either.

Let's face it, I worked in language schools with 21 year old Australians and Canadians who are on Working Holiday visas and teaching part time.

They are teaching part time. They behave professionally in their classrooms. But I don't view them as professional teachers. Like someone said above, your just a chatting partner. Somone who they can talk to.

Sure, a few of you out there have a Masters Degree in English or whatever and are teaching at Tokyo University. Great. But I think that most of us teach in language schools.

And I don't view someone holding a Master Degree in ESL from an accredited univeristy as a "real" teacher either.

If those of you who hold master degrees in ESL don't like the behaviour and backgrounds of those who predominate the industry, why don't you go back to Canada and America, where most of the "real" teachers are.

But even the guy who has the Master Degree in ESL from an accredited university would have to go back to school for another year or 2 to get his teaching certificate.

So, in the long run, I guess it's just easier for you to stay in Asia and pretend to be a "real" teacher and call yourself a "professional"

Ha, aha, haa!!
Thanks for the laugh!!

Ben Round de Bloc · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 1946

wOZfromOZ · Joined: 01 Feb 2003 Posts: 272 Location: Shanghai

Ben

This w.anker's a waste of cyber space! Dont go the big deal on this piece of garbage.

We are waiting for the true and justified placement of legislation from these gutless pricks in government in ASIA -CHINA and elsewhere to go the hard yards and make our job professional

You may be waiting!!!!!

..............Have the Chinese government officials got the BALLS?? mate........... - I dont think so - too much corruption hey!!! - IT'S KNOWN BY US ALL!

(ARE THEY MONIOTORING THESE JOB BOARDS)............... I dont think so!

wozfromoz