Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Flirting with students
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
 
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
dduck



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 422
Location: In the middle

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 2:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Professionalism Reply with quote

scoobydo wrote:
I think this whole "professionalism" question does need a reality check. For a start has anyone remembered the old expression: "those who can do, those who can't teach". We are not starting from a good position.

I have a lot of sympathy for what you're saying. However, I consider the field of ESL to be too huge and varied to be able to generalise with any real success. There are elements of ESL made up from backpackers - those with itchy feet who want to travel and see the world. At the other range of the spectrum are those who are fully qualified and professional non-ESL teachers, who choose enjoy a change of lifestyle by teaching ESL. So some ESL teachers are undoubtedly professional.

The question is what do we mean by the world "professional"? My own opinion is that those who choose ESL as a career, undertaking further training, education are highly likely to be professional. Backpackers, although providing a service (in my opinion) are likely to be holidaymakers with attitude.

Quote:
Teaching ESL is not a profession. Professions have professional bodies. ESL has none. In most counties we are conversation partners. We are seen as being there to get the students to open their mouths. Even our own employers don't often think we are very important when it comes to their students learning English. This is of course a broad generalisation. Teachers in Japanese Universities who are earning a lot of money are professionals but lets face it: most of us are doing a job that could be done to some level of effectiveness by any native speaker.

Less generalizations - more details please.

Iain
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Sunpower



Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 256
Location: Taipei, TAIWAN

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 3:19 pm    Post subject: Nova Non-Socialization Policy Challenged in Court Reply with quote

Saw this in the Japan Times today.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20030301b8.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12853
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 3:28 pm    Post subject: Extend - don't scrap Reply with quote

Dear Sunpower,
" The complainants are calling for the clause to be scrapped, arguing it is racial discrimination because it only applies to foreigners. "
If that's indeed true then it is discrimination. But rather than having the clause " scrapped ", I'd like to see it extended to all teachers. Conflicts of interest are always going to raise ethical problems.
Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
arioch36



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me get this straight....Gary writes,"
There is nothing in any rule book that says you can't date students except perhaps the place you work at."

well first, this is untrue. Many countries have such laws. Already talked about it. But which rule is important, if the rule book of your work place isn't? Sometimes it is hard to remain polite here.

Slant eyed john sayed it well,"
But for some of us, the idea of a " rule book " is irrelevant anyway. It's not an " external rule book " that matters, in my opinion, as much as an " internal " one.

The rule book only exists because of the "teachers" who have no such internal rules, thus will always seek to justify their unprofessional behaviour. Schools don't always punish such rule-breakers because it would bring to much embarrassment and loss of revenue to their school, (like the Catholic) church; not because they approve of what you do.

They just figure people like this will be at a different school next year, and they become convinced that all people who will work at their school must also be scum with no internal rules, so why should they have rules when dealing with teachers.

Teachers decide what ethical behaviour is among teachers. Only scum date their students. If the student is that important to you, you can wait 3 months, and maintain friendship and go out in groups. The reason scum don't want to wait three months is because the student is not important to them, the school's rules are not important to them, only their own scummy desires for immediate gratification is important.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bnix



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 9:43 pm    Post subject: Sunpower is the One Who Needs a Reality Check Reply with quote

No,SP,I do not intend to "go back to Canada and boast about my ESL degree". Mainly because I am from the US, not Canada.

And I'll betcha you don't have much qualification(if any) to teach English...or are you one of those guys who thinks your charisma,charms,blah, blah are adequate to "teach"? I'll bet you are. Backpack commando?? Laughing Laughing

As for teaching in the US with my degree, it is possible because I have done it. Canada?I really don't know and don't care,because I don't intend to try to teach there anyway.

All of your rationalizations are pretty weak.Do YOU have any qualifications? I know guys like you,"Doors" and "Chowman" always have an "answer"...but when it comes down to the old nitty-gritty, like qualifications,you make some weak excuse.How convenient!! Laughing Laughing Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sunpower



Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 256
Location: Taipei, TAIWAN

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bnix - stop trying to be so pompous and actually contribute something.

Are you going through a phase or something.

I hope it passes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, guys. Do us a favor and exchange private messages if all you want to do is sling mud at each other. Nobody is even remotely close to the original topic anymore. If I want juvenile messages, I'll go to www.bigdaikon or www.tefl.net. I don't need them here, too.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
itslatedoors



Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 9:00 am    Post subject: Qualifications Reply with quote

Bnix,if you'd bothered to read some of my previous posts ,you'd have noticed that I said I'd lectured at university.You can't do this armed only with a backpack,(I also held a senior position in its ELT dept.),...duh?Any part of a discussion involves listening,or in this case reading.Maybe you need to brush up on your own communication skills before poisoning the web with your childish ranting!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bnix



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 10:04 pm    Post subject: S.P...You Still Didn't Answer the Question... Reply with quote

When they don't have any qualifications to teach...they will try to change the subject really quickly..... Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
guest of Japan



Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2003 6:43 am    Post subject: flirting with students Reply with quote

I'm guilty. I most definitely have contributed to the sleaze factor and await my punishment. I began in this industry about two and a half years ago and within only three months I had broken the cardinal law. I don't know how or why it happened. Maybe I was lonely as I felt abandoned in a new culture and language. Maybe I just wasn't interested in dating a barfly. Maybe I was just attracted to the beautiful smart girl who wanted to hang out with me and was kind enough to do so using her second language.

But my sinning didn't end there. I continued dating her. I forced her to take classes with different teachers. Even my manager and coworkers cooperated and treated her like a friend rather than a student. She was denied the sacred puritanism of the teacher student-relationship and had to settle for a mediocre boyfriend.

Would I do it again? Probably not, but I did do it, and I can't take it back. Am I proud I did it? No, but I am proud to still be dating that same wonderful girl, who just happens to be older than me. I am no longer with that job, but ironically she is still attending that school. In hindsight I'd have to call it the worst best choice I ever made.

I've been reading this thread for a few weeks with interest. Some comments I've appreciated more than others. I can only say that for me it was not a black and white choice. None the less, it was a choice. I made it fully understanding the possible repercussions and dangers. It worked for me. I'm sure it has worked for others too. I'm even more sure that it has been a dismal failure for even more.

This thread has lingered on the idea of professionalism for quite a while. For me it wasn't a professional choice. It was a personal choice and I'm glad I made it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kent F. Kruhoeffer



Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 2129
Location: 中国

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2003 8:08 am    Post subject: Konichiwa Reply with quote

Dear Guest Of Japan,

As I mentioned several pages back, life is rarely black and white. I think you explained your situation well, and honestly. I'd 'kick back' over a cold beer with you any day.

Dating a student would not be my choice, but I'm old enough to recognize that the "one shoe fits all" concept doesn't work. Not in real life, anyway.

Enjoy Exclamation
KeNt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Edward



Joined: 04 Mar 2003
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 4:48 pm    Post subject: flirting--who starts it, who finishes Reply with quote

I teach Univ. And adult age students in mainland China. Flirtation is part of a healthy society. Flirtation has now and perhaps will be forever locked up in litigation, so as to make it unapproachableand ugly ill of society. If a student makes a flirtatious remark, I return it, but always with comic flair. That is my forte and keeps me in demand [not flirting, humor!] as a teacher in Guangzhou.

Now, if I were to be the one flirting without provocation, then I would understand people turning a disapproving eye and ear toward the behavior. I actually have a friend who is new to teaching who does this too openly, and therefor may alienate the male students. Balance is essential in teaching, and if you behave as if only the opposite sex are garnering your attention, then of course you will end up in the soup!

There are different types of teachers, just as there are different types of people. Some teachers go into class with ties and suits on, giving a quick and curt good afternoon class, and then proceeding with the lesson, keeping distance between them and the students. Another may come in, sit on an empty desktop, jeans and polo shirt, say how is everyone? with a beaming smile, and begin real conversation. There are ? What? A half dozen other types fitting between those? And one of those might be the flirt.

It is sort of like drinking or smoking; if you think you are flirting too much, then you probably are and need to put some attention toward the matter.

If you feel guilty as sin for returning a flirtatious remark to an attractive student, then you are just human and sensitive, and normal. Look yourself in the mirror in the morning and ask yourself do I lust after my student(s)? If you lean toward a definite yes, and can tick off more than a few faces to go with that desire, then you could be heading toward trouble.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
arioch36



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589

PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2003 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one problem I personally see in your post...assuming you are talking about flirting in class, it is not just the boys (who often perceive favoritism of male teachers towards the girls)
What about the girls who don't flirt. Do you really give them just as much attention? I guess i mean "you" in the general sense, including myself. Does my ego feel good when a girl in class flirts with me? Definitely.
Do i see this as a problem? Definitely! By and large, many girls who flirt in the classroom have a problem, feeling that this is the way to get love and respect from men. The type of men who give them love give them the wrong kind of love, often. And in America studies, girls who flirt with their teachers are more likely to come from broken families, no father, abusive male. I don't want to send them the message that they need to be pretty and flirt to get my attention.
Don't want to be an ogre on flirting. I think there is relatively "innocent flirting" to heavier flirting that contains sexual innuendo.
As a man, I need to be self-aware enough to know that flirting goes straight to my head (when innocent, otherwise, goes somewhere else). Constant danger in any profession that has an authority figure of the opposite sex
And a twentyfour year old teacher is an "authority figure" in the classroom. He has the power, 30 students look to him for direction, he gives orders, etc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
itslatedoors



Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 8:32 am    Post subject: Aaargh!! Reply with quote

Bnix,Arioch etc etc ,you all sound so repressed.Concentrate on what you do well and develop the things you're not so good at.This thread had been done to death the reason being that people are all saying slightly different things based on their slightly different experiences/perceptions of what flirting actually is.Cultural differences and differences in the working practices , norms and enironments that ELT professionals encounter make generalizations impossible/futile.This thread is therefore useless. Long live the thread ,the thread is dead!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12853
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 8:54 am    Post subject: Not quite dead Reply with quote

Dear itslatedoors,
Well, maybe not quite dead since apparently some believe that " Cultural differences and differences in the working practices , norms and enironments . . . " are not relevant to an individual's ethical standards, that no matter how much your environment might change, your ethics remain the same.
Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
Page 9 of 11

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2011 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Road2Spain - TEFL and Spanish with one year student visa
EBC