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Flirting with students
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Kent F. Kruhoeffer



Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 2118
Location: 中国

PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2003 5:09 am    Post subject: Well, since you asked... Reply with quote

Dear StGeorge,

To answer your direct question, yes, it is damaging.

Damaging to the reputation of the teacher involved, and to the school he or she works for.

I won't argue your good point that there are indeed "different" kinds of teachers who work at "different" kinds of schools. You're right, we aren't all seen as authority figures.

JustMy2CentsForYa,
kent
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guru



Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 156
Location: Indonesia

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 3:08 am    Post subject: There is a distinction between child and adult classes Reply with quote

Rolling Eyes In Britain ,the US and Australia there are laws regarding teacher student relationships and we shouldn't lose our professionalism once we cross the waters. That i agree upon. This is all in context with high school students who are under the age of consent and are legally minors. Relationships with and adult and a child are not tolerated in our society at all. I agree that it is unethical to take advantage of a minor who hasn't matured emotionally.

Adult English classes on the other hand include students who sometimes are older than the teacher. To bar relationships between adults is another topic. If it includes favouritism for grades or absing your power then it's not ethical at all, is it? If a relationship develops with a stuent in their 20's without academic favours then there's not too much of a case for getting upset. If you work at Mcdonalds and fall in love with the general manager, is that wrong? If you fall in love with a client at work or a secretary, is that wrong? I say check your motives and only in the context of Adult classes.

Razz
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12055
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 4:46 am    Post subject: If there's a " conflict of interests " Reply with quote

Perhaps it's a bit hypocritical of me to be posting on this topic; I teach in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, all my students are male, and my sexual orientation precludes any " flirting ", at least on my part. But it seems to me it's a simple matter: if there's a " conflict of interests ", if the student involved IS one of your students and is getting grades from you, then it's unethical. However, if that's not the case, and if you're both adults, then why not - depending, of course, on local laws and customs. I don't " accept gifts " from students - but, when the final grades have been posted and they're no longer my students, I have accepted " tokens of appreciation " ( i.e. not a Mercedes, unfortunately, often something such as a bottle of perfume - which I, in turn, usually give away myself ) from a
class.
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Kent F. Kruhoeffer



Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 2118
Location: 中国

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 8:23 am    Post subject: follow-up Reply with quote

Yes, I agree that when adults are involved, as opposed to kiddies, it's not always black and white. No argument there.

Personally, I'd like to say that I have nothing against a little harmless "flirting" in class. Cool I'm really not a prude. In fact, I'm actually a rather liberal-minded, party-animal kind of guy. Really Exclamation

If you want to shake your hips like Elvis, or wink at the opposite sex, it's ok with me if it's done in the context of "lightening up" the atmosphere of the class, or keeping students from falling asleep, or even getting the shy ones to open up a little. Laughter is a good thing. No doubt.

When that harmless flirting moves from the classroom into the bedroom, however, I can't help but feel that there's something inherently wrong with that...even when both the teacher and student are adults. Why?

For me, it goes deeper. In my "warped" way of thinking, I just don't see much difference between the parent-child relationship, the Priest-parishioner relationship, or the teacher-student relationship. All 3 relationships involve an unspoken but implied sacred bond of trust. Trust that the "older and wiser" will do the right thing: guide and teach the younger and "less wise".

Granted, as StGeorge rightly pointed out, today's classrooms are often *not* about that sacred bond of trust, and do involve people of equal age... who are legally free to do what they want.

I think, in the end, it all boils down to how you see yourself as a teacher. If teaching is just a "means to an end" for someone, a part-time hobby that allows you to travel around the world for free, then you probably don't take this issue too seriously.

If, on the other hand, you see yourself as a "lifer"..that is, someone who will remain in the profession until death do you part, well... you might be more prone to "take the high road", as I have chosen for myself. (I still shake my hips, by the way.) Laughing

To repeat what I said earlier, I don't judge what others do in this regard. Life is rarely black and white. And I do try to keep an open mind. Wink

Regards,

kent
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Lucy Snow



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 218
Location: US

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerald/Charles--still drumming up business for your website?
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 12:07 pm    Post subject: me Reply with quote

Cut the cr*p about being self-righteous prudes. If you guys can't keep your genitalia in your pants and find dates in other places, you are the ones with the problems.

If you work for a school/company that prohibits dating students, and you break that rule just because you are too horny, what other rules are you going to break?

As Lucy Snow put it earlier, you are just asking for a world of problems by dating your students. I know one guy in Japan who dated at least 50 of them, left each and every one hanging and heartbroken when he left the country in a year (including a sorrowful little thing that wasn't even told he was leaving and had to discover the fact 2 months later when she phoned his place and found out that I had taken it over). Another guy dated a student, and when they broke up, she sent so many stories flying around the office about harrassment and unequal treatment in class, that the guy was almost fired.

So many students attend classes in Japan because they just want to make friends and/or date the teacher. It's amazing how hormones block the normal senses and blind people to this as well as to common sense.

Do yourselves a favor, guys. Keep it away from the classroom.

(Sorry if this doesn't sound like Glenski, but it's how I feel.)
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dduck



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 422
Location: In the middle

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: me Reply with quote

Glenski wrote:
Cut the cr*p about being self-righteous prudes. If you guys can't keep your genitalia in your pants and find dates in other places, you are the ones with the problems.


When I studied German in Austria, my teacher introduced his long-term girlfriend to us (his class) during an excursion. It was a little odd because she was Japanese - so you'd wonder how they met. My teacher explained that she used to be a student of his...


My point is that there are some unscrupulous teachers out there who will take advantage of his (and even perhaps her) students, but not everyone is so shallow.

If two consenting adults can find a shared love for one another, then I welcome it. If two consenting adults can find a shared lust for one another, then I hope they both go into it with "eyes wide open". Shocked

Iain
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Bindair Dundat



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 1123

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 8:58 pm    Post subject: Re: follow-up Reply with quote

Kent F. Kruhoeffer wrote:

For me, it goes deeper. In my "warped" way of thinking, I just don't see much difference between the parent-child relationship, the Priest-parishioner relationship, or the teacher-student relationship. All 3 relationships involve an unspoken but implied sacred bond of trust. Trust that the "older and wiser" will do the right thing: guide and teach the younger and "less wise".


Yes, you have a point there: The elder has a responsibility to the younger in each case. You could add doctors, counselors, or other types of teachers/ministers, too.

I have a teacher friend who married one of his students, and I know of several other teachers who did the same. I know that such is common in certain times and places; somehow marriage removes the stigma that is associated with dating -- perhaps because marriage is seen as responsible?
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Roger



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stgeorge,
you are a provocative type, and an opportunist on top of that, and that is a bad mix for a person who is supposed to be a role-model.
Go to arioch36's post and see why you are demeaning others, not to mention yourself.

Clearly, there is a justifiable difference between language training institutes where adults enrol. If there is a follow-up to your class antics, then who can object?
But some of us are teaching in public schools, and our learners are minors. Perhaps, this escaped you, but still, your language was not very pure when you used terms such as "prudes", and if you need to shower contempt on others for being more straitlaced I wonder about the quality of your professional services as well!

You are obviously too young to act as a suitable role-model - your own students are your own age as you said in your first post.
Grow a little older, and more mature!

In China, I have often heard that young and unmarried American males are not desired at some schools. I wonder why they single out those! Why not young American females?

But then, some guys come here because the girls here make it plain enough what THEY want. Some losers on America's social scene must therefore feel like being elevated to the position of a king.

There is a legal provision in China, often forgotten these days, but in fact still enforceable law: Dating minors is tantamount to prostitution and liable to punishment and deportation! For someone who uses the term "prude" so liberally, I guess you would have to say the whole of CHina is prudish because by law (not alwayws respected any more), premarital and extra-marital affairs are equated to prostitution.

What is so "prudish" about this? It is Western ethics applied by a Third-World country that borrowed them!
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wOZfromOZ



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 272
Location: Shanghai

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 3:52 am    Post subject: the present situation in AUS Reply with quote

This was in the Courier Mail today -.............


Teachers face sack for lawful liaisons
Matthew Fynes-Clinton, education reporter
08feb03
TEACHERS who have lawful sex with students will be sacked even if the participants do not attend the same school.

It is hoped the crackdown will stop transferred teachers from forming sexual relationships with students they taught at previous schools.

The ban also will affect teachers who prey on students outside their own school when groups of schools come together for activities such as music and sport.

The move follows a State Cabinet decision to strengthen Education Queensland's Code of Conduct and Student Protection Policy.

Teachers in the public system already are forbidden from becoming sexually involved with students at their school.









But Education Minister Anna Bligh said yesterday that the widened ban would become the "toughest and most explicit in the country" when it starts in July.

"The revised code closes a loophole which allowed state school teachers to engage in a sexual relationship with a student at a different school without fear of disciplinary action," she said.

"It (the new code) says in no uncertain terms that sexual relationships between state school staff and students are not acceptable."

Queensland Teachers Union president Julie-Ann McCullough said yesterday that teacher-student affairs was not a "major issue" in government schools.

"It's bizarre," Ms McCullough said.

"Why is there no focus on private schools, where a lot of these issues have been more common in the last few years?"

Ms Bligh emphasised the Government was targeting students over the age of consent and under 18.

Sexual involvement of teachers with students under 16 was unlawful and a police matter. "Teachers hold a position of trust in our schools," she said. "While sexual relationships between people of legal age is not a criminal offence, it is not appropriate in our schools and this policy is about safeguarding students from improper conduct."

Ms Bligh said the new code would apply to teachers, principals, deputy principals and guidance officers.

She said that in cases where students were 18 and legally adults, the total ban on sexual activity with teachers would be enforced if a "conflict of interest" could be shown.

In 1998, The Courier-Mail published allegations that a 31-year-old state high school teacher had sex with several of his female students. After a departmental investigation, the teacher was sacked.

Last year, Premier Peter Beattie said an average of 10 state school teachers each year were disciplined over sexual liaisons with students.


hope this helps!!!
wOZfromOZ
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 11720
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2003 8:34 am    Post subject: scot47 Reply with quote

You can accuse me of being "old-fashioned", a Holy Joe or anything else, but it is both professionally and morally wrong to have sexual liaison with a student - even if you are both in your seventies !

And it does NOT matter what culture you are in !

With an ex-student that may be different.
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Durian Man



Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2003 9:33 am    Post subject: Exploitive Reply with quote

People in positions of authority and trust may be attractive to others simply because of the position they hold. Perhaps these individuals, who flirt with their student,s would not experience the same successes with the opposite sex outside the classroom ,and so exploit that position?
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arioch36



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Durian man... very insightful. I mean lets be honest all of, we get more positive attention (and some negative) that we would never get back home.
Though in the states there are love-starved teen age girls and boys from one parent that both men and women teachers have taken advantage of, thinking vainly of themself, when all the student sees is an authority figure. I include myself in this danger
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Albulbul



Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 364

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:10 pm    Post subject: arioch36's convoluted syntax Reply with quote

Come on Arioch36. You can better syntaxwise ! You may be suffering from low blood sugar caused by doughnut deficiency !!
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stgeorge



Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course for an adult to engage in any sort of improper sexual conduct towards a minor is wrong, evil, pathetic and probably illegal. That is so whether or not the adult is a teacher. That is so obvious I didn't even think it needed stating.

Adult language centres are a different thing altogether. To answer some points made, no it doesn't harm the reputation of the school or the teacher. Almost all teachers at adult language centres have had relationships with students without any harm to the teacher or the school's reputation. As for being a 'role model', I don't think 20-something women will ever see a 20-something man as a role model. She may see him as a potential boyfriend though and what is wrong with that?
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