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Flirting with students
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Robert Russell



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 44
Location: Suwon, Korea

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:47 pm    Post subject: what about Reply with quote

I totally disagree with a teacher, flirting with, dating or shagging a student!!!! But if such things were going on in a school what kind of a scenario would you have. Would there be a sense of competition between teachers? Each time new students camw would the teachers be sizing them up and preparing thier schemes??? Would it help the teachers relations with one another? If we were both interested in the same student and she chose me over you; would we still have an amiable relationship???? I have seen this! I have seen teachers look at students and verbally question how they would be in bed. I find that locker talk about students sickening!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But I do need to mention one thing. I did my student teaching at a communiity college and I respected the teacher I taught under. He was great and he had a wonderful wife. He was a teacher for 3 years in Mexico and his wife was his student at one time. He did date her as a student.

I think he was an excellent teacher.
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arioch36



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:48 am    Post subject: digression Reply with quote

Actually, Mr. All bull, you are quite perceptive, and actually on the mark. I tend to come to Dave's when my insomnia strikes (which happens when I am not working enough). So it was 4:00 in the morning, and I was in an acute need for a Raisan Bagel.
Now that I am returning to work i will try to amend my ways. Nothing worse then trying to make sense of someone's incoherent ramblings. I will start looking at the Japan site and read more of Glenski's postings.
Was that really you Glenski? You really ripped out

Chris in Henan, looking out at Shanghai
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Chris



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 116
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:12 pm    Post subject: Not always Native Speakers Reply with quote

Hi,

Just wanted to add my .02 to this discussion. I'm teaching at a university as well as a private school in Poland . At the university, I must say that there aren't any student-teacher relationships. Then again, most of us are women, and in their 30s (I'm the youngest on a staff of 35--I'm 30). However, at the private school, many of the teachers have dated students. I'm speaking about my Polish colleagues and their Polish students as well as my native speaker colleagues. One is particular is a couple who got married when she (the teacher) was 30 and he (the student) was 22. They are both Polish, and they are still together after 15 years.

As an American, I've had a difficult time crossing that border and, in fact, haven't. But for my coworkers (both native speakers and Polish English teachers), dating is not taboo as it is in the US. If the opportunity presented itself, I might be willing--after the semester. BUT, the English language business is geared more towards men--I have a total of about 160 students at the private school. Of that, maybe 45 are male. Of that number, about 20 are over the age of 18. And most of them are married.......with children.

I know I've rambled on, but hopefully this makes sense.
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 12226
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 9:27 am    Post subject: doing it with your student Reply with quote

Kruehofer is right. Those who cannot see that this is professionally and morally wrong are exactly the backpaker types that have ruined this "profession" in many countries. I thank God that we do not see these people in the Middle East.

On second thoughts maybe I should organise a few of these types to come here and let them see what happens to teachers here who commit GROSS MORAL TURPITUDE with their students !

And you can call me a fuddy-duddy and old-fashioned and what you like. I PROMISE I won't burst into tears !!!! Or throw a temper tantrum !
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Ben Round de Bloc



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1946

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 1:21 pm    Post subject: My view on this Reply with quote

Scot47, I wouldn't call you fuddy-duddy and old-fashioned, although I would say your views are much more conservative than mine on this topic.

I've never dated a student, but then I hardly ever have students whom I'd consider in the running. For me, they'd have to be over 40 and single or divorced for starters, and the vast majority of my students with very few exceptions are of traditional university age. If I found someone among my students who met my requirements, so to speak, and was interested in dating me, I would first evaluate the pros and cons of the situation (favoritism, mixing business with pleasure, and all the other possible problems that could arise,) but morality wouldn't enter into my decision, because I don't see it as morally wrong in the situation (university, country, culture) where I teach. With nepotism so standard at my university, it seems most people working there are related by blood or marriage to others who work there, and there's no policy against teachers dating students. I've had sons, daughters, spouses, cousins, boy/girlfriends, etc. of coworkers in my classes. The concerns of those teachers who've dated students, are now dating students, or who've considered dating students (at least those teachers I know personally) focus on the personal factors I previously mentioned rather than on the morality of it.

Then again one of the things I appreciate about the culture of the country in which I currently live and teach is that people in general seem more concerned about themselves and things that directly involve themselves. They rarely worry about what other people do or don't do outside of that framework. I might add that I've never seen any of my coworkers at the university use their position as a means of getting dates or view their students as a dating pool. Teachers who date students neither broadcast the fact nor make a great effort to keep it secret. It's just not a big deal here.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12459
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:50 am    Post subject: How about ethics, then? Reply with quote

Dear Ben Round de Bloc,
You wrote. regarding dating a student, that " morality wouldn't enter into it ". Well, perhaps part of the problem here is defining " morality ". If you see it as referring only to " sin ", that seems to me to be rather a limited definition. Webster's first definition says: " of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior " but makes this distinction between " moral " and " ethical ":
" MORAL implies conformity to established sanctioned codes or accepted notions of right and wrong <the basic moral values of a community>. ETHICAL may suggest the involvement of more difficult or subtle questions of rightness, fairness, or equity <committed to the highest ethical principles "
In addition, you also seem to me to be saying that you base your estimate of the rightness or wrongness ( completely? ) on the context of your situation: " because I don't see it as morally wrong in the situation (university, country, culture) where I teach ". Does this mean that you, personally, have no " moral/ethical " guidelines with regard to dating students, that in a context where it's regarded as OK, it'd be OK with you, but in one where it's not so regarded, you'd see it as " wrong " also? Can you envision any context where dating a student would not raise the problem of " a conflict of interests "? And do you think that such a " conflict " would not pose, at the very least, an " ethical dilemma "? I'm having trouble understanding your viewpoint because, to me, it seems that anytime, anywhere, you have the responsibility of fairly and accurately " judging " ( i.e. grading ) someone, then to have a personal involvement with that individual is going to compromise your objectivity.
So, it seems to me that no matter what the local mores and customs may be, dating a student would be ethically dishonest. But perhaps I'm missing something here, so I hope you'll let me know what you think.
Regards,
John
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Paul G



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 125
Location: China & USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:11 am    Post subject: Posted for Glenski Reply with quote

NOTE: Glenski wrote the following post on this topic and it somehow got posted on the wrong thread. I can't for the life of me figure out how to move it to this thread, so I am just pasting it here.

Heading: Call Jerry Springer

This topic is developing into a real outlandish set of circumstances that seem suitable for a movie of the week or a talk show like Oprah. What's the next loophole to justify dating a student?

1. I just want to date the hot babe in my class to make my OTHER girlfriend angry and pay more attention to me.

2. I was in the hospital with amnesia and didn't know my nurse wanted to take lessons, so after I got out, she joined my class.

3. It's ok if I date a student. I'm/She's married anyway, so this won't get serious.

4. It was only a dare from a co-worker. We'll never get serious after the first date.

5. Hey, I showed up drunk/stoned for class and really didn't mean to ask her out.

6. I'm leaving the country soon anyway, so what the heck?

7. Everyone ELSE is doing it. Uhhhh, right?

Gee, this is fun.
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guru



Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 156
Location: Indonesia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:49 am    Post subject: courier mail was about school not uni! Reply with quote

There is a big dif between school and uni or any post secondary ed.

I don't condone flirting with students, actually I'm professionally against it, and morally, as i'm now married. I've taught in both language adult schools and high schools.

With regards to university, people in their 70's or 20's I believe that professionalism is the key. I do believe that in life relationships sometimes just happen irrespective of a person's position. Sometimes a teacher and student become friends. Actually I've introduced friends to language schools and I've ended up teaching a friend English. On the other hand my wife was a student in her 20's in an English language school in my class.

Flirting ...no Friendships yes.

Have any of you ever developed friendships with students as opposed to love? Surprised
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 12:11 pm    Post subject: you're kidding, right? Reply with quote

"Have any of you ever developed friendships with students as opposed to love?"

For Heaven's sake, what a silly question! If there's NO ONE here without non-romantic relationships with their students, we should all pack up our bags and go home.

Just for the record, I have several male and female students (those that were studying with me as a language school student or are currently a private lesson student) who are non-romantic friends now. We go out to dinners, attend various special events, and even have a professional working relationship (my proofreading side work) sometimes.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12459
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Glenski,
Yikes - a ( sort of ) triple negative: " If there's NO ONE here without non-romantic relationships with their students . . . "
That took me a minute to figure out - and, to tell you the truth, I'm still not sure I've got it right.- because I THINK it should be " If there's NO ONE here WITH non-romantic relationships with their students . . . ". Or have I misinterpreted your idea? Yes, I think it would be absurd to deny that we, as teachers, have " favorites " in our classes - in mine, it's the ones who show up, ask lots of questions and do their work. So, usually they're the " bright ones ". But I also have to admit to a certain fondness for the ones who, although they don't " pack the gear ", give it their best shot anyway. The funny thing, though, is I tend to be much harder grading the " bright " ones than the others ( whom I'll occasionally give the benefit of the doubt ). I expect more from them, and when I don't get it - which isn't often - first, I want to know why, and, if there's no good reason, the red ink flows. So, I guess I could be accused of a kind of " reverse discrimination " because I'm tougher on the " favorites " than on the goof-offs.
Regards,
John
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Robert Russell



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 44
Location: Suwon, Korea

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:53 pm    Post subject: How does it color the Profession Reply with quote

I believe Professionals will have standards and will attempt to maintain those standards. ESL is often smirked at as less than a profession. I would think that the frequency of non-professional behavior a is major contributing factor to how those in ESL are viewed. Flirting with students dismisses other good efforts made to dignify the Profession.
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bnix



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 5:32 am    Post subject: Robert R.You Are Not a "Prude" You Are a Professio Reply with quote

Robert,you are not a prude.Your thoughts on the subject are very professional.People like stgeorge...well...the ESL field attracts all kinds...a lot of unqualified people,especially in certain countries, which shall remain nameless in this post ,where good looks(blonde,blue eyed) substitute for teaching credentials.

The attitudes sadden me too,Robert.Unfortunately,it is readily apparent that a lot of the so-called "teachers" are more interested in things other than teaching.Of course,we are all aware of some of the so-called "teachers",unqualified know-it -alls(maybe they took an intro course in anthroplogy and suddenly they are "experts") are going to defend what coincides with their pleasures.Teaching?Oh,yeah,,,teaching...sort of gets lost sometimes...doesn't it? Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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Robert Russell



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 44
Location: Suwon, Korea

PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:50 pm    Post subject: Sexual Energy Enhances Classroom Dynamics Reply with quote

Can it be denied?
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Gary B



Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2003 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wha'z up?
You all should lighten up about dating students. ESL/EFL may be professionals, at least some, but they are human. I see absolutely nothing wrong with going out with students as long as it doesn't interfere with treating that student differently than the rest. Herein lies the problem. It's a tough balancing act, but if it can be done, why not? If you teach in Latin America, it would be hard not to be tempted to date women students, they're gorgeous!
Chow for Now,
Lighten Up People In Motown Gary B.
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bnix



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2003 5:28 am    Post subject: Give It Up. Gary...... Reply with quote

I am quite sure there are gorgeous women in Latin America besides your students.Of course,there are gorgeous women everywhere. And the guys who want to "date"(we will keep it polite) their students of course are going to say "there is nothing wrong with it".The question is whether they are really professionals if they do it.Personally,I say "no".

If you are a professional(of course there are a lot who are not professionals in this business),you should be able to separate your lovelife from your profession.

All that stuff about"lighten up"...blah...blah... is just an attempt to excuse unprofessional behavior. A lot of hooey from people who are not really professionals and want to "do their thing"...instant gratification.

Again,there are plenty of members of the opposite sex not taking classes from you.Why pick on your students and invite complications and potential disaster?
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