Job Discussion Forums

[stgeorge]

Most esl teachers don't really consider themselves "professionals" whatever that word means. They are young men who want to spend a year or 2 in Asia or wherever to see the world, gain a bit of experience to spruce up their CV and "date" (also being polite) the local women.

With few exceptions esl teaching is not a good long term career option.

[bnix]

St.George states in his post that most teachers don't consider themselves professional.Speak for yourself,St George.It is obvious you don't consider yourself a professional.As for that other stuff in your post...stating that most ESL teachers are young men who want to spend a year or two in Asia to"date" and "spruce up" their resumes....maybe that is YOUR idea of teaching ESL...and that is a big problem in this field right now...attitudes like yours.Thank GOD not everyone shares your views.Talk about simplistic! I wish people like this would stay home to "date" and 'spruce up' their resumes!On the other hand,maybe he is just another troll?

[Paul G]

bnix:

Give 'em hell Bruce! I caught a whole lot of flak on another thread for suggesting that some unqualified scab who was willing to work for about one third the going wage should stay home. Comments ranged from I shouldn't be so rude to my ideas about EFL being professional were laughable. It's high time that the professionals start telling the backpackers, tourists and other sundry unqualified riff-raff exactly how unwelcome they are!

[Robert Russell]

Parallel to one another are the professionals and the transients. Their values and attitudes are different and yet they often occupy the same place. Because their values often represent differing polarities the ESL field becomes schizophrenic. One time someone looks at teachers and thinks they are a bunch of young, unprofessionals who exploit their situation for dates and sex. Once in awhile they look at us and the see a teacher.

As for me I am a professional and ESL IS my career choice. I have lived in Asia over 17 years--I am not a transient.

[Gary B]

Wha'z up?
St George makes some great points. There are a lot of travelers that use teaching EFL as way to hang out in a place and get laid. On the other hand there are those of us that take it seriously, professionaly and a way to get laid. Then there are the people that truly want to just teach as a profession and for the experience. Then there are the hypocrites that say they're teaching as a profession, but in reality they also want to get laid, but deny it. In any case, I often have a hard time defining teaching EFL/ESL as a profession even though I'm finishing up a TESOL Master's Program. Let's face it folks, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to teach EFL/ESL. I mean I resent the fact I have to be in a Master's Program to make myself marketable even though I have taught EFL for 5 years previous to entering the program. I mean it's not like going into law, engineering, or medicine. I happen to know some very good EFL instructors that never stepped foot in a university or had any specialized training. I've also met some terrible instructors that didn't give 2 flying you know what's about teaching and never had any training. I don't use teaching to get laid anymore because I'm very happily married, but you bet it would be part of the reason for teaching overseas if I were single. At least I'm honest about it.
Chow for Now,
Agree With St. George To Some Extent Gary B.

[Glenski]

Gary,

Teaching ESL/EFL may not be rocket science to you, but it's important to define what the heck you mean.

Teaching in Japan at a language (conversation) school requires little knowledge and lots of personality in the majority of cases. Teaching at a university requires the teacher to at least have a sense of what he is teaching, so that he can provide lectures and activities suitable for grammar/writing practice. (The activities differ, too, because of the class sizes.) If you are correcting papers for grammar and spelling, you'd better know what you're doing. Teaching at a high school also requires the knowledge of lesson preparation. If you teach elementary school, you need tons of energy and patience, but if you are a serious teacher, you will also need to know how to get kids to focus. It's more than just playing games or singing "The Itsy Bitsy Spider". And, even though I despised my own course in...gulp!...rubrics, it's not a bad idea to get a basic knowledge of them in order to create grading systems, especially when you have something as fuzzy to grade as projects, posters, presentations, and such. It may not be rocket science, but if you want to be fair and aware of the methods, it's better to have SOME training than to rely on a degree in political science or geology and a backpack full of Lonely Planet guides.

That said, what the heck do you mean, Gary, when you talk about teaching ESL/EFL? And, for the record, what do you teach, Gary?

Moreover, you complained that you "resent the fact I have to be in a Master's Program to make myself marketable even though I have taught EFL for 5 years previous to entering the program". Considering the fact that overseas (and in my case, Japan) there are tons of people looking for EFL jobs, how else would you choose good from bad candidates? Just a thought.

[Sunpower]

What does the word "Professional" mean?

Am I a professional because I say I am?

In Canada, men and women go to university for a long time and do teaching practicums before they're given a teaching degree and permitted to teach in our schools.

Having not done any of this, is it fair for most of us to call ourselves professionals?

I'm sure lots of us try to behave in a professional manner when we teach...

But are we really, really qualified to call ourselves, "... a professional teacher?"

There are no uniform standards in Asia.

Why blame the guys coming over to get laid and drink beer.

Blame the High Schools and language schools and governments that allow these people to work as teachers.

Paul, Bnix, etc. I disagree with your attitudes.

I think the poster has made a valid point.

We are not treated as professionals in the language school industry and, as a result, very few people behave or think of themselves as professional teachers.

That doesn't mean to say that Glenski or Paul G or Bnix aren't professionals.

If they are, they are the exception. Not the rule.

[bnix]

Of course,there are going to be people who are not really professional who are going to try to apologize for "the guys who come over(overseas) to get laid and drink beer".These people are not professional and most of them are not even interested in teaching....they are interested in getting laid and drinking beer.Riff-raff is really too kind a term for them.Why don't they stay home and "get laid and drink beer"...instead of pretending to be "teachers"?

I realize of course,that this problem is not going away.Indeed,it seems to be getting worse.

[Robert Russell]

Lets see. I have an MA TESOL from San Jose State, and yes I did a practicum in the States at a community college. I do consider myself a professional. Now many say teaching English is not the same as other professions, that we are not rocket scientists. Well if you know nothing about semantics, pragmatics, syntax, phonology, linguistics, SLA, testing,language structure, discourse, morphology,phonetics and pedagogy, then yes, I can understand your feelings. Making the statement, "we are not rocket scientists" also tells me that you feel you have arrived. That you do not feel there is much more to be learnt. I believe this is the dividing line. You see, I feel there is tons more to learn. I know so little.

I do not believe the above knowledge, which makes us stupid, is going to make any of us a better teacher. It does give us an intellectual curiosity and background in some of what is happening with our students. We all need a vibrant personality to teach successfully. We must care for our students as well. Caring for our students does mean having boundaries that we will not cross.

Anyway I feel a professional is one who takes pride in what they do. They have a hunger to continue to learn about their field. This is why there is something called CPE's, Continued Professional Education, I have much to learn and did not know that until I learned enough to become stupid enough to know I did not know everything there is to know.

[Glenski]

Sunpower,

[Gary B]

Wha'z up?
In reply to Robert Russell's response, my linguistics course has taught me that native speakers already know all about semantics, phonlogy, morphology etc. but they don't know they know it. Internal language is the $10,000 term. In my opinion, teachers don't need to know all of the technical aspects of these areas. I'm also about to finish my TESOL Masters program and I have contended all along that teachers learn far far more from their own personal experiences than in courses. I don't give a hoot at what Chomsky says, what Krashen says or anyone else, though they may be interesting. What's important is what works and what doesn't work drawn on experience and results. I am not claiming by no means that I know all I need to know in order to teach. In fact, that's the beauty of teaching is you learn something new everyday to use the old cliche. I am claiming that you gain that knowledge through personal experience of teaching. Another point is you can have all of this academic knowledge, but if you don't have the personality it ain't worth beans! As far as pride and caring for students, this by no means requires a university degree. In most cases, if someone picks up a good ESL/EFL textbook and follows it they will learn what they need to know as they teach. I look at teaching ESL/EFL much like driving a car. You can only learn so much in a driver's ed classroom, the real knowledge of driving comes on the road.
Chow for Now,
Masters A Plus, But Not A Necessity In Motown Gary B.

[bnix]

Obviously,Glenski is a real professional.Thank God there are some in this field.It is really encouraging to know there are people out there with professional standards,who are really interested in teaching,and did not just come overseas to "get laid and drink beer".

As Glenski says,it does not take much to figure out that the kind of people who are primarily interested in"getting laid"and "drinking beer" are not professionals.They try to cover themselves with all kinds of rationalizations,but most of their logic is quite slipshod,like their English "teaching".

I am not a chauvinistic,flag-waving patriot either,but I do care about the impression given by my compatriots overseas.Bluntly put,a lot of them are overseas "teaching" with no qualifications, just farting around,trying to "get laid",and giving everyone a horrible impression of Americans.It is a real shame they don't stay home and swill beer and try to "get laid".However,it is not as romantic flipping burgers in some greasy spoon in some burg in the US and swilling beer.However,they should do the rest of the world a favor and not try to"teach" English.

Of course.my words are probably wasted,because a lot of these people think they know it all and they will insist stridently on their"right"(???) to "teach" English.

Anyway,Glenski,fine post.You hit the nail on the head.

[Robert Russell]

I agree with everything you said. I do find some of Chomsky and Krashens' stuff to be of interest.

In the practical I doubt that my Masters contributes that much to my classroom experience, it just makes it more interesting. I know a teacher who got a CELTA in Hong Kong. He is American, dropped out of high school, and is an excellent teacher!

To be quite frank, based on what I have observed with the younger adult students, being successful in the classroom has a lot to do with sexual energy. The more popular teachers to the young have been those who talked about sex a lot and flirted with the students. Based on our last camp that semed to be true. At the end of camp it was those teachers that students took pictures with, gave gifts to and continued to be in contact with after the camp. One female student characterized these teachers as being young, handsome and EXCITING! I think this is the reality of what we are involved in. One student said of one of these popular teachers, that all they spoke of was sex.

Like it or not, hormones have a lot to do with popularity in the classroom.

[bnix]

Uh,Robert,that"camp" you were talking about in your latest post...was it an English camp or a sex education camp? Makes one wonder when "one of the teachers only talks about sex".Apparently one of those "teachers" who came overseas to do other things besides teach English

I think your post oversimplifies matters.True,there are situations(Oh Lord, all of the pros in this business know them!!!) where "good looks,raging hormones,etc.,etc.) take precedence over any actual teaching.However,believe it or not,there are also situations in this field where the students are primarily interested in learning English...and the teachers are interested in teaching English...and nobody worries so much about all of that hormone,popular...blah...blah...stuff...which is only a game anyway,and not really teaching. It is "pretend" teachers "teaching" to "pretend" students.But it is not always that way.Thank God.Although apparently it was that way at the "camp"(????) you mention....

[Robert Russell]

Yes Binx, I am afraid some students learned more than their parents had intended. There was an after-hours spin the botttle like game between students and teachers that was preceded by a large consumption of alcohol.