Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

CNA-Q's EFL dept: embarassing media!
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Qatar
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ntropy



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 644
Location: ghurba

PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scot47 wrote:
You guys have never been in the REAL Third World.


You got that right!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ntropy



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 644
Location: ghurba

PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

linebacker wrote:

In terms of Newfies...I think they still get paid more however all employees received a raise so most seem to be close to the maximum salary. Keep in mind that ALL provinces do this. I knew teachers from Newfoundland who taught in Ontario. They had a masters but were paid less than a masters candidate from Ontario. They were placed on a different level. Thats the system.


I have worked at a number of different universities throughout Ontario and Alberta. Staff working there came from a number of provinces and, indeed, countries. Never have I heard of a system where they were paid less (or more) based on geographical origin of birth or qualifications.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ntropy



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 644
Location: ghurba

PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

linebacker wrote:

In terms of Newfies...I think they still get paid more however all employees received a raise so most seem to be close to the maximum salary. Keep in mind that ALL provinces do this. I knew teachers from Newfoundland who taught in Ontario. They had a masters but were paid less than a masters candidate from Ontario. They were placed on a different level. Thats the system.


I have worked at a number of different universities throughout Ontario and Alberta. Staff working there came from a number of provinces and, indeed, countries. Never have I heard of a system where they were paid less (or more) based on geographical origin of birth or qualifications.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lonesome Dove



Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:46 pm    Post subject: CNAQ turnover Reply with quote

Hannibal is just wrong to suggest that nobody leaves CNAQ voluntarily, at least unless they have a permanent job in Canada they need to return to. I have never seen figures, but I know personally of a fair number who have left, including several "runners." The attrition seems greater than at other places I have taught.

This in itself is surprising, because, as Hannibal says, the pay is superb, better than anyone is going to get in another job anywhere in ESL, either in the Gulf, Canada, or anywhere else. The hours are not the best, but competitive. The students are not the best, but no worse than elsewhere in the Gulf at the technical college level. And I would insist, against some here, that Doha is not at all a bad place to live--safe, quite a bit going on, all the familiar comforts of home.

So why are they nevertheless having these turnover problems--something any business wants to avoid?

I think it has to indicate how bad the management situation and general working atmosphere is.

Of course, not everyone at CNAQ is unhappy. The whole point of cronyism, for example, is that it is of great benefit to the cronies. So there have to be a certain number of folks at CNAQ who feel quite lucky to be there. Moreover, CNAQ seems to have lower standards for experience and academic qualifications than any other tertiary institution in the Gulf--people who would not be qualified to teach anywhere else can, at CNAQ, aspire to any position at all, even upper management. This, too, is bound to make a good number of people happy--they've found their gravy train.

Unfortunately, those who are less happy are going to be the most qualified and committed teachers. Those who aren't interested only in money, those with a sense of professionalism, those who actually tend to earn their pay, those who might hope to get almost as good pay elsewhere, and those who expect merit to be rewarded.

If they are the ones leaving, this bodes ill for the institution.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MyTrunkshow



Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 232
Location: One map inch from Iraq

PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:30 am    Post subject: CNA Reply with quote

I read Lonesome Dove's post, then went back to Hannibal's, then I read the thread again.

CNA-Q is not a business in the context you have provided Dove. It strives to be a Canadian run school in Arab culture. It is not a business like a buxiban or cram school or private school in western or no-western culture.

This school is a fairly new foray for everyone involved, although a few years have gone by and some issues seem to remain unresolved. Enrolment is on the upswing and each new semester presents challenges. CNA-Q is likely full of highly talented people, some better than others. However, the school you've described is a generalization that does not help anyone's further understanding of CNA-Q.

You describe being committed and professionalism in opposite terms of what Canadians learn. The fundamentals of being committed and professionalism are dealing with situations, improving one's own situation, being flexible and adapting. Amplify these skills in a foreign culture and it takes mettle and a strong mindset to realize reward from a job.

As you dismissively infer about people: "The less happy will be the most qualified and committed." The most qualified will have significant global ESL experience, skills that can only be obtained from living abroad for several years or more; patience, perseverance and gumption to follow through in dealing with all things new in a foreign country. This is professionalism in the ESL world, not just an MA, a BA and/or a TESOL course. Credentials mean little in a person's ability to teach in an Arab classroom. For instance, I've never seen anything taught in a pedagogical methodology course about students being lazy, mean, sleeping, texting, flirting or whatever else. It takes (inter)personality skills to make a teacher. Just because someone is qualified and committed does not mean they can teach in the ESL domain. That's for sure. Theory is out the window when the students forget their books or don't show up.

I agree with you that the cronyism needs to go...but somehow it is possible to be mitigated with a personal firewall, as others have done. On this point, it is a darn shame the problem hasn't been cured after more than 5 years. The CBC, numerous posts from reliable sources and people I've talked to from CNA-Q at a conference have all more or less confirmed this to varying degrees. But, others like frznguru(a female teacher who used to post in 2006?)linebacker and others enjoy their time there. As we well know, cronyism is a problem back on the Rock too.

As for Hannibal, he reminds me of sysiphus's fate. Sisyphus was sentenced to pushing a rock up a hill. As Greek legend has it, he let the rock roll down and skipped and jumped playfully as he ran back down to start again. He found great joy in misery. Translated to modern times, Hannibal gets things done when others around him are in disbelief and horror that he gets along well in this world. Good on Hannibal. He is a conqueror. The rest of the Sisyphus myth is diabolical, so we won't go there.

Don't go back to Canada dove, if that crossed your mind. Stick it out in a challenging environment. Or, maybe you're just venting at some concerns and dissatisfaction that are difficult to deal with as this is your first gig abroad? If this isn't your first gig abroad, then this response is meaningless to you.

CNAQ can't be a Canadian school on foreign soil. Not yet. Maybe never. It doesn't have anything close to what the American Univ. Cairo, has achieved,for example. CNA took what it could... a $300,000,000-10 year contract for a small school from NFLD. With this comes baggage, intercultural (mis)management, conflict and unfairness.

Are you, Lukey, Baedebok, Ntropy thinking that CNA Q is not affected by local management styles? Look at public policy here and see how things are done. Why would CNAQ be different? It isn't CNAQ's money. It's Qatar's and they effect what goes on. Their policies may even promote cronyism.Sad

Be happy. I'm happy in Saudi and others before me hated it with a passion. They still post regularly about how bad it was...but it really isn't. Many are content and enjoy it here. Others aren't. These posts on ESL Cafe often are linked to an individual's perspective. Sh$$ happens. Do you react to the sh$$ or do you simply go ''mwuhaha'' clean it up and go on to the next thing without thinking about poor ole me... a victim again. Those evil cronies.

mts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Imdramayu



Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 384
Location: Prince Sultan University

PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:23 pm    Post subject: The evolution of higher education in Qatar Reply with quote

Well, guys, I'm glad this thread isn't dieing or getting buried. From the looks for things at CNAQ these days, the school will implode. There is rapant cronyism and corruption at CNAQ. On the other hand, it has been in that state for years and it seems to stagger along. I do hope it survives and grows into a great school of higher learning (like the American Univ in Cairo and the Education City universities). CNAQ could really help the Qataris with their education needs.

I agree with My Trunkshow's thoughts that CNAQ will never be able to mature to becoming a great school of higher learning (like American Univ in Cairo) - even though I wish it would. Qatari business culture does influence and work against (in some cases) the CNAQ's own busines culture. But CNAQ could rise up against this. How have Education City universities successfully been able to grow and mature while CNAQ hasn't? Is it because the original CNAQ mandate was poorly thought out and the people currently at the helm are incompetent? Shouldn't that mean that those at the helm leave? Is that happening as we speak?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lonesome Dove



Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:51 pm    Post subject: CNAQ and newbies Reply with quote

Trunkshow, it is not profitable, and not fair play, to speculate on why someone writes what they do. That's ad hominem, and worse--we are trying to preserve our anonymity here, and often cannot reveal much about our circumstances. You need to deal with what people actually say.

As it happens, you are dead wrong to assume I am in my first posting overseas.

This being so, your post, as you yourself say, ends up being of no value to me; and misleading to others.

Sorry to say this. I hope you do not take it personally, but I don't want others to be left with the wrong impression.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MyTrunkshow



Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 232
Location: One map inch from Iraq

PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huh? How is your anonymity being affected? Has there been such a turnaround at CNAQ that you're the only person that has more than one year there..then we could all guess it's you? Wink

The main point we can see eye to eye on is cronyism. Other than that, we have opposing views on how to approach a job in a school that is strongly influenced by local management and old hands.

Anyway, you have just grossly trashed your co-workers you pass by in the hall each day.
Quote:
CNAQ seems to have lower standards for experience and academic qualifications than any other tertiary institution in the Gulf--people who would not be qualified to teach anywhere else can, at CNAQ, aspire to any position at all


And you're concerned about me leaving the wrong impression. I can see why you need your anonymity. Shocked
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ntropy



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 644
Location: ghurba

PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ntropy wrote:
linebacker wrote:

In terms of Newfies...I think they still get paid more however all employees received a raise so most seem to be close to the maximum salary. Keep in mind that ALL provinces do this. I knew teachers from Newfoundland who taught in Ontario. They had a masters but were paid less than a masters candidate from Ontario. They were placed on a different level. Thats the system.


I have worked at a number of different universities throughout Ontario and Alberta. Staff working there came from a number of provinces and, indeed, countries. Never have I heard of a system where they were paid less (or more) based on geographical origin of birth or qualifications.


Quote:
Are you, Lukey, Baedebok, Ntropy thinking that CNA Q is not affected by local management styles? Look at public policy here and see how things are done. Why would CNAQ be different? It isn't CNAQ's money. It's Qatar's and they effect what goes on. Their policies may even promote cronyism


Mr Trunkshow,

Please read my post carefully. It does not comment on Qatar, CNA Q, Qatar management, or public policy in any way. What is says is that in my experience, pay in Canadian post-secondary institutions is based on merit and not geography as another poster claimed.

Understand what you're reading before making comments on it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MyTrunkshow



Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 232
Location: One map inch from Iraq

PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ntropy said
Quote:
Never have I heard of a system where they were paid less (or more) based on geographical origin of birth or qualifications.


What is 'the system' you refer to above? Is it a system in rural Gondwanabakaland?...or is it a system of a school named in the title of this thread?
Quote:
Understand what you're reading before making comments on it.


You were following up on linebacker's quote and he was talking about the disparity in salary at CNAQ based upon birthplace.

The whole point of this thread is that CNAQ has problems. No one is denying that. And ntropy's take is...who knows. He's not refering to CNAQ. Whatever. ESL schools have, to varying degrees, differences in management styles from western schools. This affects people in all kinds of ways that are unfair. This is the global ESL factory that we chose to put ourselves into....except for the hires at CNAQ that came direct from Canada. I doubt many of these teachers were prepared for the experience of working at a school they thought was Canadian, but really is greatly affected by 'the system' that is in place....a machine that is at times difficult to work at compared to Canadian institutions. Compared to overseas universities in the ESL circuit in the MEast and elsewhere, it is likely as muddled as so many other schools. Although Dove has indicated that the school is, well, staffed by people who could not get jobs anywhere else.

"The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing." Wilde

So much of CNAQ's business is unlike that of NFLD. Some were not prepared for Qatar management, especially with the strings that are pulled from above in CNAQ's ivory towers. I also can't imagine why a new! provincial consortium with little international experience at this level would embark on a huge project involving so much ESL? Is the reason CNA got the contract only because of greased palms? Laughing CNA could not have had this background. I can't imagine how teachers without prior overseas experience can cope....well some can't...and of course some can. And those that can't blame it on the school. Fair enough. But the other view is that people are successful at CNA Q, doing their job and finding their way though the madness. It's just another Mid East school with all its foibles.

However, as was said, I hope they pull it together too as I'm sure some back in Canada and the US are looking at this shaking their head. ..or not? I doubt many old university decision makers back in Canada read this board. Education funding is on the upswing in the Middle East. There's opportunity for western schools coming down the pipe. An embarrassing model it may be but to the people who make decisions, it may not be.



mts
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ntropy



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 644
Location: ghurba

PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deleted

Last edited by ntropy on Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ntropy



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 644
Location: ghurba

PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deleted

Last edited by ntropy on Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ntropy



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 644
Location: ghurba

PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deleted
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hannibal_the_Conquerer



Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 21
Location: Doha, Qatar

PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

baedaebok wrote:
I do hope it survives and grows into a great school of higher learning (like the American Univ in Cairo and the Education City universities).


baedaebok wrote:
How have Education City universities successfully been able to grow and mature while CNAQ hasn't? Is it because the original CNAQ mandate was poorly thought out and the people currently at the helm are incompetent? Shouldn't that mean that those at the helm leave? Is that happening as we speak?


Dude, you've worked here. How can you compare it to actual universities??? I think CNAQ is a great place to work, but I don't for one second take it seriously enough to compare it to American Univ in Cairo, Georgetown, Cornell, VCU and such. Not by a fricken mile! But I get paid as much as I would working at those schools (maybe more!) and I like the atmosphere in my office, in my compound, and with the friends I've made.

The cronyism is retarded, you are quite correct, and many people make the same or more than me for the same or less work. But I make more than my parents did combined back home. (They both were in ESL back in Canada) I've worked in other Gulf countries, and the problems at the CNAQ are not theirs alone. Many are Gulf-wide and I think we get treated much better than any INSTITUTE out here. We are NOT an established university by a long shot! But call me Sisyphus all day long, cause I am a well qualified rock pusher and do my job well. I enjoy it here, I am lucky to have a great class, and my money bucket is filling a lot fast that the #2 bucket is, so those who don't like it can turn over all they want. There is a line up to fill their positions. But the stories of mass turnover are greatly exaggerated.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Karamazov



Joined: 15 Nov 2008
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Things that are awesome about CNA-Q include:

Huge $, small classes, few contact hours, lots of prep time, 3 months off/year, no bills to pay, tons of money for PD, technology all over campus, a free ride to and from work every day...

I think people that complain about CNA-Q would be complaining anywhere... they should spend a year in the hagwons of South Korea and then see how they feel.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Qatar All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2011 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Road2Spain - TEFL and Spanish with one year student visa
EBC