Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

PhD in Humanities
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> General Middle East Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
eha



Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 355
Location: ME

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

'....Koreans in Engl Lit wanted very little to do with my interpretations, and even disparaged Western interpretations of our own cultural phenomena!...'

That's interesting! So what DID they want?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kittyfye



Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 46
Location: was Korea, now Albuquerque

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An excellent question, eha. (Keep in mind that I was a prof of English language, only "hanging out with" the Koreans teaching Eng Lit.) They want their own interpretation. Many of them--I am not speaking absolutely--think in Korean-terms on all matters: Western lit, Western theology, etc.

It's difficult for us to understand. For example, if we were converts to Buddhism, and a Korean monk came to our temple, in our Western country, to instruct our sangha in Korean zen, we'd line up and pack the house to hear what he has to say about strange Eastern concepts like "Karmic web" and "non-duality." But, to continue the example, Korean Christians are comfortable with a "Korean Christianity" that focuses mostly on who is right vs who is wrong, and, therefore, who is going to hell. When you remind them that the point is Love, aggapean love, they look at you like..well, like a Westerner who has just been told by a Buddhist that "there is nothing separate in the universe; all is one."

The principal difference here is that we want to learn and to broaden our perspectives, but they, apart from far too few examples, do not.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
kittyfye



Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 46
Location: was Korea, now Albuquerque

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

temba,
Thanks again for being honest. When you say that the ME does not need Machiavelli, surely you mean they do not want such lessons on such subjects. Yes, the world has become a Hobbesian pragmatists universe, and all by way US influence, too. We are, after all, the most Hobbesian of peoples.

Think about it: some American invented the sandwich, so that he could eat with one hand and still work with the other. Now, if that is not perverse, I do not know what is.

But being an American, I must argue on pragmatic grounds. If we do not need Machiavelli, then why do we need philosophical discourse at all? many would say we do not; Hobbesians were the first to insist that their sons did not need classical languages in European universities, since all they intended to do was succeed in business. But to all of that hooey I say, "Let them see Korea!" I honestly hate to pick on them like I have, but they're an excellent example of what becomes of a culture driven only to "succeed" but not to perpetuate itself as a culture. And they never really had any philosophical discourse anyway, something that makes them especially susceptible to pragmatism.

But the above is just fun-talk, temba. You would know better than I if ME unis teach in the way of Western arts and thought; if they do not, so be it. However, I will take my chances with earning a PhD. With it, I can land higher paying Eng Lang jobs--jobs that require very little of my time, and, therefore, allow me to use my learned skills to continue publishing.

Let me ask you, though, would you offer any more details about these 3 PhD HUM positions you mention? Pay? Tenure track? Fields? etc..? I will say that 3 years American uni experience (in my field, not in freshman composition, I assume) will be a problem; I do not intend to be ABD that long.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Sheikh N Bake



Joined: 26 Apr 2007
Posts: 1307
Location: Dis ting of ours

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kittyfye, at the risk of running afoul of geographical boundaries (wrong forum for Korea here) and having spent six years in East Asia and also served as a Foreign Student Adviser in the U.S., I must agree about the Koreans in general. In simple terms, they are much like Arabs in that they tend to say whatever makes them feel good, with complete disdain for anything like the search for truth. (Arab example: the CEO of Al-Arabia, one of the most important Arab satellite news channels, said publicly that America would reject Obama in the presidential election because "that is the American mentality." Well, my response is, that is typical of the Arab opinion leaders, the very CEO of a top news channel saying something as dumb as that.) They and the Koreans alike run purely on emotion in any argument; thus reasoned debate is rare. A broad example was the sight of millions of people in Seoul angrily demonstrating against the proposed import of US beef. This is because there was ONE American cow with mad-cow disease about four years ago. Furthermore, not just Korean and American inspectors but the WHO have certified US beef as safe. But facts don't matter.This is nationalism gone insane and shows that the Korean people are not ready for international trade. No products from anywhere are in aggregate absolutely 100% safe. I'm sure one in a million Korean cars might have malfunctioning brakes or throttle, or somewhere a toy with a trace of lead paint. Should we hit the streets in the millions and demand trade protectionism? No, because that is not the mature way to deal with a very small problem.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kittyfye



Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 46
Location: was Korea, now Albuquerque

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, S and B, if only we could go on and on. You are right, they roll with the emotional impulse. In Korea, it is actually seen as masculine to jump head first without looking. Many foreigners over there say that the cultural motto appears to be "ready..SHOOT..aim.."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
veiledsentiments



Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 15999
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is an interesting question for Temba... tenure? Are there any universities that give tenure to a foreign teacher? Actually I would be very surprised if they did...

VS
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
temba



Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[ I will take my chances with earning a PhD. With it, I can land higher paying Eng Lang jobs--jobs that require very little of my time, and, therefore, allow me to use my learned skills to continue publishing.)

No you are dead wrong, no decent university is going to hire a humanities type (even with a PhD.) and pay him/her more to do the job of a professional ELT teacher. When I hire people for the language courses I even tend to avoid those with higher degrees in linguistics, I want, MAís in the field of English Language Teaching, and to my mind I prefer DELTA trained staff over MAís but canít get them passed the University Senate. The days of regarding ELT as the elephant grave yard for failed lit. teachers is long gone. Iím sure that your comments will bring down the fury of those hard working and usually underpaid professionals who work in higher education teaching basic language courses preparing students to go on to regular freshman English programs. I would also like to point out that if you plan on doing a half decent job teaching ELT, with no background you will have to spend a great deal of time in preparation.

VS, I have worked in a number of universities in the region indeed some of the best and none of them have offered tenure to their own native faculty members let alone foreign staff. However many do offer 10 year contracts at the rank of Full Professor which is more or less tenure, Iím on such a contract at the moment.

As for sandwiches, I think they are first attributed to the Jew philosopher Hillel and are named after the 4th. Earl of Sandwich who was not to my knowledge an American!!

I will leave philosophical discourse on Hobbs and Machiavelli for another forum.

But you are right this thread does seem to go on and on.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Never Ceased To Be Amazed



Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Fer-in-ers" can get tenured positions at universities in Japan. But they're as rare as hen teeth and you got to be something real special, but I know of it being done.

NCTBA


Last edited by Never Ceased To Be Amazed on Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:55 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
temba



Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCTBA you are correct and in most of Europe too including Turkey. I donít know about South America. I was referring to the Middle East. In my experience tenure is tricky where ever you are and apart from publications it depends more on the power base you have built up over the years in the institution, (this might not be exactly true in the US where ďtenure trackĒ is now regarded as a right rather than a reward, which to my mind it should be) but try getting tenure if you are loathed by the Rank & Tenure Committee at any university, not very likely.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Never Ceased To Be Amazed



Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OIC! Laughing Yeah, but you have to consider the fact that a "university" system...until 30 or so years ago is something that the locals attended in the U.S. or Europe. My system is only about 20 years in existance, so, they're still trying to play catch up.

Also, as the weather and the way some of the locals act (read: drive, manage, consider expats toys to be dallied about with/neglected/forced to leave with, sometimes, very little notice,etc.), keeping someone over here can be a spotty thing. So, even if they did have a tenure system, it wouldn't guarantee that someone would stay on, doncha think?

NCTBA
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
temba



Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes NCTBA sadly you are correct, I never thought that one has any meaningful rights or security in a land that is not your own where the contract or anything else one signs is governed by the local legal system. Now Iím not saying this is a bad thing, we choose to come over and work in these places for the perceived ďgoodsĒ they have to offer, yet it is very much a case of Caveat Emporium. And indeed I have known those who took on the local system and won. However it has always been a pyrrhic victory.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kittyfye



Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 46
Location: was Korea, now Albuquerque

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCTBA, where are you writing from?

temba, are you replying to a post having forgotten the covered ground, and jumping to conclusions without giving your interlocutor the benefit of the doubt?

I have four years' Eng Lang teaching experience, one year in an American university and about 2 more years in universities abroad--where I was one of those hard-working teachers showing Korean students how to not end every Eng word with a vowel sound, teaching them how to actually put to use the years of Eng grammar background that they have, and all of the other etcs with which we are familiar.

And unless one is teaching a very advanced conversation-oriented class (more leading an interesting discussion than rote "teaching" of a language), "a great deal of time in preparation" is--note my emphasis--always the norm. I taught uni students from the same textbook three semesters and never once went into a classroom without doing a solid prep that resulted in new material added to the lesson. Surely this is somehow familiar to you, temba. It is coming from the kind of teacher willing to take those two more years of classes, and then write a book to earn a PhD. Your dead-wrong reaction to my post shows me that you have been in the company of either bums or morons too, too long.

My experience is surely limited to NE Asia, but I have never seen a single uni Engl Lang job offer, not a good job offer, that did not require obviously fewer work hours than most desk-jobs in the world require, and most do offer more money per month for PhDs--though your region, or your institution, may differ. But even with prep time figured in, no other position on the planet would allow me time to research and write like a university teaching job. About that, sir, I am dead-right.

"elephant grave yeard for failed lit teachers"?? Are you $hitting me? That is an insult, and not even a disguised one. All the same, I have to be a gentleman in my reaction and ask that you forgive the "snarkiness" of what follows, though it be true:

Only a coward hides behind the anonymity of the Internet to say things in a forum that he would not say in face to face conversation with a live human-being.

temba, your expertise, your "tenure," if I may, is quite apparent to me and everyone else on this thread--just look at the sorts of questions directed to you and the manner in which everyone responds to your contributions. Now, consider regarding others with a professionalism befitting of your position here. The only "fury" that has been "brought down" is, I am afraid, my own, and it is equal to the disappointment I have in a seasoned professional in my field willing to unjustly debase others--though at his own expense.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Never Ceased To Be Amazed



Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kittyfye wrote:
NCTBA, where are you writing from?

I'm an ME TEFLer (isn't this the Gen. ME board?...country specific...not the K.S. of A.) with many...and I mean MANY years in Japan.

P.s.- I'm also a former volunteer to the ACLU. Which is why I'm a little "touchy" on the "entitled" posts on another thread. The "entitlements" in this part of the world are practically non-existant. I, however, entered into this existance with "eyes wide open".




NCTBA
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
veiledsentiments



Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 15999
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

temba wrote:
...no decent university is going to hire a humanities type (even with a PhD.) and pay him/her more to do the job of a professional ELT teacher. When I hire people for the language courses I even tend to avoid those with higher degrees in linguistics, I want, MAís in the field of English Language Teaching, and to my mind I prefer DELTA trained staff over MAís but canít get them passed the University Senate. The days of regarding ELT as the elephant grave yard for failed lit. teachers is long gone.

Kittyfye... it appears to me that you have misunderstood the post that included this paragraph. I read it as a very accurate assessment of the changes in TEFL in the Middle East since the 1980's. When I first started, a large proportion of the teachers did not have related degrees. Employers that said that an "MA" was required accepted anything... MA in Education or Literature or any humanities like art or music or even Criminal Management. Now the best employers want that MA to be in TEFL/TESL or "Applied" Linguistics (not theoretical). And if you are a PhD, you will most likely be paid on pretty much the same scale as the MAs.

Apparently Temba, like myself, feels that someone who teaches a foreign language should have the appropriate training to do so... not just being a speaker of the language and having a degree that is sort of related to something that has to do with English. My first degree was in teaching HS English - basically literature, of course. And I feel that in no way did it prepare me to teach EFL. That I learned in my coursework for my MA and in practical classroom experience.

It appears that only you are upset at what Temba has said. And I suspect that he would say the same thing to your face in a private conversation. Naturally with our employers we have to play the game, the rules of which they control. And in the Middle East, you definitely want your posts here to be anonymous. I have found his posts both honest and accurate related to the Middle East - throwing in examples from Asia merely muddies the waters as these are two different worlds in TEFL education. In most of Asia the requirement for teaching seems to be speaking English and being there.

VS
(BTW... temba... I believe that AUC offers or offered tenure. I even know an American EFL teacher who got it. But now they limit how many contracts a TEFL teacher can have to avoid it happening again. Laughing Not sure how this affects the PhDs there... probably the same...)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Never Ceased To Be Amazed



Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

veiledsentiments wrote:

...MA in Education or Literature or any humanities like art or music or even Criminal Management.

I did dat in previous years, but they called us "prison guards"! Seriously, I've been a prison guard! Funny, how some of us have gotten into the business! Shocked



NCTBA
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> General Middle East Forum All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Page 4 of 8

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2011 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Road2Spain - TEFL and Spanish with one year student visa
EBC