Job Discussion Forums

[johnslat]

Dear Cleopatra,
Even if the "restrictions" are in force, officially or unofficially, what adherent of Judaism, Hinduism, etc, what atheist who has the slightest knowledge of Saudi Arabia, is going to actually put that down on the form?
I, for example, who am an agnostic on my doubtful days, a Deist on my hopeful ones, entered "Roman Catholic" in the space provided, although I haven't been a practicing one for decades.
Seems like yet another example of pro forma "for public consumption" policy to me. I must admit, though, I recall an Indian guy (a Muslim) in another program at the IPA who showed up at the airport with a bottle of whiskey in his suitcase, and once he finally did get in, asked around as to where "the action was" in Riyadh. Needless to say, perhaps, he didn't last long at all.
Regards,
John

[Cleopatra]

I agree with you re. the 'for public consumption' policy.

I'm sure all those guys working in Immigration in KSA know damn well that all those "Christians" from Sri Landa and Malaysia are nothing of the sort.

As I said on another thread, "It's all for show!"

[johnslat]

Dear Cleopatra,
But - must the show go on? Guess so, at least for the relatively near future. But I do think that the time's, they are ever so slowly achangin' back in the Magic Kingdom. For better - and, probably, for worse.
Regards,
John

[Cleopatra]

Dear John,

Will the "show" go on?

Well, I think the social value placed on public appearances is deeply rooted in Gulf society - as other posters such as VS have pointed out - and is likely to remain so.

As for the inordinate amount of power given to the Muttawain and their mates,well, right now it is being challanged,but will things remain so? Not if Prince Naif et al have their way. Abdullah and the "reformists" seem in the ascendant at the moment, and hopefully things will stay that way, but I wouldn't bet my lif�'s savings on it. I think the KIngdom is now on one of those historical "turning points" and it will be fascinating to see how things progress. However, I think this will play itself out over a good number of years - maybe in a decade's time we''ll have a better idea!

Another thing that strikes me is that the "reforms" thus far have been quite superficial - I know that'sbetter than nothing and that the mere fact that preveiously unmentionable topics such as the status of women and the power of the clergy are being openly discussed is itself a step forward in a Saudi context. But will it really make a huge change to your average Nourah or Mohammed if their kids get to start learning English in primary school? Or if they can elect - what was it - 25% of the members of local councils? Again, it's a start, and this society is not one to take kindly to drastic reforms - or is that simply the Royal Family's favourite excuse to maintain the status quo? It's all so damm complicated!

Finally, I'mguessing that you - like me - get most of your news from the Arab News. However, I wonder how representative that really is. Is it just designed to pander to the tastes of "Westerners"? I actually find the paper a little irritating because of that suspicion. It'slike when you talk to certain SAudis (away fromtheir compatriots) and they're dying to "impress" you (as they see it) with their "Western" views. Then you ask them why their wife isn't with them at that embassy party or whatever,and you get a glimpse of the real thing.

Or maybe, as I said before,I'm just a cynic!

[johnslat]

Dear Cleopatra,
It never fails to amaze me how much we tend to agree in our interpretations of what's going (or not going) on in the Kingdom. I concur with all your views in your last posting, from your take on " The (local, not to be confused with OURS, Richard Pearle) Prince of Darkness", Naif, to the essential superficiality of the "reforms" thus proposed and/or enacted. As for the Arab News, well, I am, of course, sure that nothing gets published in that paper (or anywhere else in Saudi Arabia, for that matter) without having been first "vetted" by the government. Yet even that censorship is something I find hopeful, for I can recall the "old" Arab News. Back in the 80s and early 90s, you'd NEVER have found any articles on such matters as: drug abuse (among Saudis), AIDS, spousal abuse, the "woman problem" etc. But articles on those subjects, and others, equally "controversial", have been in the paper over the past few years. And I've been favorably impressed what I've read by Khaled Al Maeena ( the editor) - and his son, Tariq; they stike me as being decent, intelligent, fair-minded individuals. I'd say that the "walls of denial" are slowly being dismantled and the attitude of "it - i.e. anything "bad" - can't happen here" is gradually being changed. Can't help it; I remain - guardedly and qualifiedly - an optimist.
Regards,
John

[Cleopatra]

Dear John,

Well, you know what they say about "great minds"...

While I agree that the Arab News has made great strides - obviously you have a much better perspective than I do - I still wonder how reflective it is of the Arabic language press, which is, of course, the one that really counts. And I agree that the mere fact that previously taboo areas are now open for discussion is itself an indicator of some progress.

However, in my 2 years in Riyadh - admittedly the most traditional part of the Kingdom - it seemed to me that it was impossible to overestimate just how conservative most people are. As someone working with Saudi women I never ceased to be amazed by just how confined their lives were and how paranoid their families were! I'm sure you don't need me to tell you this! While I agree that even some of these people would be happy to be rid of some of the more arcane rules and regulations, I do think that for every person trying to "open up" the country, there will be another one trying to keep things the way they are. In other words, for every Abdullah, there is a Naif. (BTW - did you hear the rumour that he's recently outlawed dolls and other toys resembling the human form - could be an urban myth but anything's possible with this man!)

Another thing about the Kingdom is that people are very reluctant to tackle issues directly - as you well know. That's why I think it would be a brave ruler indeed who actually scrapped laws such as shops closing for prayer, or, of course, the driving ban - the opposition would be unbearable. Perhaps, as in the past, the SAudis will find a way of tackling these and other - much more important - issues with the "softly softly" approach.

it's certainly possible.

Regards,
Cleopatra

[johnslat]

Dear Cleopatra,
Perhaps due to my, ahem, advanced age (not to mention those 19 years in the Kingdom) I've developed a far greater capacity for patience than I (with my hot-tempered Irish heritage) once possessed. I'd say it's going to take a relatively long time for "substantial reforms" to take place in the Kingdom - and that's probably a good thing. Social change shouldn't be too abrupt; it dislocates far too many people. And I'm not saying that the Kingdom should become some kind of faux "Western democracy", either.
I want to see a lot of things NOT change, as well. The problem, of course, is that once the process is set in motion (as I believe it already has been), well, it's a crap shoot as to what the outcomes will be.
A lot, I'd say, will depend on the future financial condition of Saudi Arabia. As long as the Royals can keep most of the citizenry fairly satisfied, I think the chances of any kind of "revolt" or "regime change" are unlikely. As I've said before, you don't have revolutions in countries where most of the citizens are driving Hondas. But the unemployment problem (among many other pressing issues) bodes ill - if the government can't get many of those young people gainfully employed and making a decent wage, well, all bets are off. I think Abdullah, though, is a pretty sharp cookie - if he gets enough time - or if his sucessor is NOT Sultan or Naif but one of the "next generation", such as, say, Salman, Faisal, Bander or someone similar - then I'd say the "slowly, slowly" method may just have a chance.
Regards,
John

[Mark100]

The situation is very delicate in Saudi at the moment .
The place could spin completely out of control if the great pool of young unemployed are not given something meaningful to do.
There is no guarantee that the royal family will be able to ride out this storm because they are at the root cause of many of the problems.
Poverty and unemployment are the two key issues that need to be resolved.
The problem is that elite in Saudi have a strong financial stake in continuing to operate their businesses with virtulal slave labour from third world countries thus denying Saudis entry to many jobs and exacerbating the unemployment problems. Couple this with the extortionate practices many in the royal family follow by taking over or demanding a stake in any successful business venture and you really have strong oppostion to many of the problems that need to be solved in Saudi is to not eventually dissolve into chaos.
Al Queda do have a lot of support here but in the end they do not seem to have any real plan that addresses the fundamental problems that exist in Saudi society today. They want to get rid of the House of Saud and expel all infidels from the kingdom but what will they replace the Saud family with? And what form of govt do they envisage for the country? The fact that they have no real program or plan may give the Saud family the necesary time to make changes if they have the willingness to do so.

[Cleopatra]

It's not just a wild rumour - the Prince of Darkness is at it again:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saudi/story/0,11599,1109291,00.html[/url]

[ohman]

Lisa Simpson and Prince Naif in cahoots? Here's Lisa on Barbie-inspired "Malibu Stacey" after the talking Malibu Stacey uses phrases like

[Cleopatra]

Hey Ohman,

How dare you insult my cartoon alter-ego, Miss (sorry MS!) Lisa Simpson!

Anyway, Liz wasn't against dolls per se, just Barbie style dolls who spouted inanities of the type you quote!

Who can forget her own creation - "Lisa Lionheart" - with "The down to earth good looks of Elenor Roosevelt"?!?

[ohman]

Touche M.S. aka Cleopatra.

[veiledsentiments]

Ohman

Even more accurate than you may know, sir---

Right Cleo?

VS

[Cleopatra]

You got that one right, VS!

[Cleopatra]

I noted that yesterday the web version of "Arab News" wished its readers a happy 2004.

Am I wrong or is this a first?

Another of the meaningless 'reforms' the AN loves to use to prove its "Western" credentials? (Don't mind me, I'm just an old cynic!)