Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Another One Bites the Dust?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Saudi Arabia
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
veiledsentiments



Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 15965
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But Ohman, I hate math. Isn't that why we teach English? And I can't cook at all ---

Just to be a contrarian - my hunch tells me that women in Kuwait won't get the vote and women in Saudi won't drive - ever. The religious right will maintain, if not increase control even if both royal families lose their power. As long as the West (read here US 'coalition') is perceived as 'attacking' Muslims, there will be no weakening of rules perceived as coming from the religion. As long as 'we' are running up and down the Gulf rattling our swords, I don't see this changing - and as long as there is oil, 'we' will be running up and down the Gulf with said swords ----

VS
(John is our optimist and I'll be the pessimist) Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12390
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:48 pm    Post subject: Fully full or fully empty Reply with quote

Dear veiledsentiments,

"John is our optimist . . ."

Ah, could we perhaps make that "hopeful realist", instead?

(Hmm, but in that case, I suppose you'd have to be a hopeless realist.)

Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cleopatra



Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys!

My views are somewhere in the middle.

I agree with VS that recent US actions are playing into the hands of the extremists, both in the Arab world and in Iran - and possibly elsewhere.

At the same time, however, I do believe that recent developments in KSA give grounds for VERY cautious optimism. I still think that a lot of the new "glasnost" we see in the Arab News and elsewhere is somewhat contrived and elitist, but it's a start.

As for the finish, well, we won't know that for some time! Wasn't it Deng who, when asked what he thought of the French Revolution, replied that "It's too early to tell!"

Touche!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ohman



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 239
Location: B' Um Fouk, Egypt

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 2:59 am    Post subject: From a Whisper to a Scream Reply with quote

Radical change regarding women's rights to drive in Saudi began when the press floated the rumor. These days, on any given day, the Arab News seems to be running a number of articles about women's rights in the workplace and behind the wheel of a car and how this is not forbidden in Islam. Editorials are generally pro-women's rights to drive (wouldn't you rather have your wife drive herself to the market than to have her ride with some stranger from the Filippines?) And Saudi women should be tending to Saudi women in hospitals and Saudi women should be teaching Saudi children--like that. It appears that limited rights are close at hand--daylight hours only, probably during school hours--drop off the kids, go to the market, pick up the kids, go home.

Soon, they will be dropping by my compound on Sundays for Bible study.

Excellent.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
veiledsentiments



Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 15965
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it just me or does this seem a lot like reading tea leaves?

The 'hopeless realist' (more perfect than you know, John) will watch this space for more news.

Is it possible that these articles are just playing to our gallery? Or that they will just throw out a few morsals and hope no one notices how little they really get? Rather in the way that Iran has relaxed its female dress restrictions and stopped attacking women for visible hair, make-up and nail polish. Urban ladies are wearing short coats with - gasp - waists apparent, rather than chador. Stop ripping down satellite dishes. And hope that people don't notice that they are not getting any more political freedom - just a smidgen of personal freedom.

Or is that really all that most of the people actually want?

VS
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ohman



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 239
Location: B' Um Fouk, Egypt

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VS--

I'm in Saudi teaching a fairly privileged lot for the military. Every student to a man responds the same way when I tell them I taught at Kuwait University with more awe than disgust.

"Teacher. . .really. . .w'allah. . . boys. . .girls. . . same classroom?"

The officer corps, the future Aramcons managers and their ilk are probably just an anxious to see which way the winds blow once K. Fahd departs for paradise. These young. . .um . . .Turks seem to be very aware they're a bit of a laughing stock from the ports of Shuwaikh in Kuwait to mountains of Salalah in Oman.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ohman



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 239
Location: B' Um Fouk, Egypt

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by ohman on Sat Jan 17, 2004 6:04 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ohman



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 239
Location: B' Um Fouk, Egypt

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

m

Last edited by ohman on Sat Jan 17, 2004 6:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Cleopatra



Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Ohman that it is probably impossible to overestimate just how conservative your average Saudi (or at least Najdi) is. At the same time, however, I do often ask myself to what extent these young people are speaking to their own gallery (to use VS's phrase). I suspect they are oftens saying what they think they ought to say. Have you ever noticed, that when you ask a Saudi a "controversail" question in private, he will invariably give you a different answer to what he will give when his Saudi mates are around.

Of course, the question arises: which is the "truth"? I suppose, 9 times out of 10, a person's peer group will win out over his foreign fly-by-night mates.

I also agree with VS that much of this "reform" seems superficial and elitist. In the past, it suited the Al Sauds (or they thought it did) to team up with the muttaiwain. Now, since the bombings, they feel it's more in their interests to promote "moderation" in religion. Either way, they are just doing what they (or at least,some of "them") feel willkeep them in power as long as possible. Where will it all end? As I said,it's too early to tell....

since I leftKSA before the real "reform" movement got into full swing, I'mvery interested in hearing what people who are there now have to say about the mood "on the ground". that's why I'm so interested in what Ohman had to say. BTW, when you said that the "young Turks" are a laughing stock,do you mean that everone is making fun of their so-called openness?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ohman



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 239
Location: B' Um Fouk, Egypt

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 6:13 pm    Post subject: Zayed-o-philes Reply with quote

Cleopatra,

I sense the young Turks here have more admiration and respect for Sheikh Zayed and Skeikh Maktoum of the UAE than they do their own royals.

"Sheikh Zayed--very good man, teacher," they say giving the thumbs up. Why's that, do you suppose?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Cleopatra



Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny, when I mentioned the word "Dubai" to my male students, they all reacted with disgust and said they would never want KSA to be like that den of iniquity. Ditto Bahrain, home of all those whisky drinking Shia heretics.

Of course, soon as they get half a chance, they're on the other side of the causeway...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Stephen Jones



Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

--"wouldn't you rather have your wife drive herself to the market than to have her ride with some stranger from the Filippines?"---

Err, it's the stranger from Riyadh or Najran they're worried about. It's not coincidental that the idea of women driving has come up at the same time as saudiizing linousine drivers is actually happening. After all it was problems with local drivers that caused the import of foreign limousine drivers in the first place.

---"itto Bahrain, home of all those whisky drinking Shia heretics. "---

The Bahraini Shias aren't drinking the whisky (that's the prerogative of the Saudis and expats) and the hotels belong to foreigners or the ruling Sunnis. In fact often Shias aren't even allowed in the hotels. Every now and again they get annoyed about this state of affairs and riot.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12390
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:22 pm    Post subject: Of Women and Wine Reply with quote

Dear Stephen,
Very true - it's the local "competition" that's feared more than the imported drivers, who are usually so scared of what would happen to them if they were to "make a pass" at their employers' wives/daughters that they quash any impure urges. Other Saudis, though, are not as likely to be deterred.
Also right on about the condition of the Shia in Baharain - and the "Saudi Shia" on the east coast aren't usually considered "first-class citizens", either.
Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
veiledsentiments



Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 15965
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to the topic of Dubai and Sheikh Zayed --

What we have here are two different things actually. Sheikh Zayed was the ruler of Abu Dhabi Emirate before the formation of the UAE. He is truly the last of the great traditional Gulf rulers. And for that reason, he is highly respected by nearly all Gulf Arabs. Unfortunately, he is now elderly and in failing health. There is much unease as to what will happen politically after his demise. Whether the Emirates can remain as one country is a question mark.

And then there is Dubai - controlled by the Makhtoum family - the sin city of the Gulf. Horseracing, discos and Russian hookers abound. They will have a very difficult time accepting rule from the current crown prince - Zayed's son. And Abu Dhabi would never accept rule by a Makhtoum or any of the other ruling families in the Emirates because they have vast majority of the oil reserves.

Thus, there is no real mystery in Saudis having no respect for Dubai (even though they may love to visit and party), but others (and probably the same people) having great respect for Sheikh Zayed. He and the Saudis may have fought each other regularly in the past, but he represents what they love about their history.

I have to admit that I have a strong affection for man myself. The story of his life is quite fascinating. He did well for a man of the desert with little or no formal education.

VS
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cleopatra



Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Saudi Arabia All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 4 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2011 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Road2Spain - TEFL and Spanish with one year student visa
EBC