Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Women in Saudi....
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Saudi Arabia
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Truth Hurts



Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 115
Location: Truthville

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John

There's a fundamental difference between Saudi representations of Americans and American representations of Saudis and it's called: POWER.

It's ignorance with power that is a fundamental danger to the world. The ignorance of the most powerful state in history is incomparable to what a Saudi mutawwa thinks about the world. Remember it was ultimately the power to actualize the ignorance of Nazi Germany that lead to the Holocaust.

And as I ponder over history of the last century and listen to the noises going on around me it seems to me increasingly clearer that the Muslims and Arabs are becoming the "Jews" of the twenty-first century.

TH
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12905
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:09 pm    Post subject: Choice is the issue Reply with quote

Dear Truth Hurts,
It seems to me that you are - once again - shifting the focus of the issue.
From claiming that the rest of the world doesn't get to contest how the ordinary American women dresses, you now seem to be saying that - well, it doesn't really matter that Saudis can contest that, that what truly matters is ignorance with POWER. Hey, you'll get no argument from me about that: powerful ignorance is always at least potentially worse than powerless ignorance (well, "powerless" may not be the correct word; the victims of the WTC terrorism would certainly disagree). However, let's get back to the issue we're talking about there: choice. If Moslem schoolgirls in France and Turkey should have the choice to wear headscarves (and personally, I think they should) shouldn't Saudi women have the choice as to whether to wear veils or not?
Regards,
John
P.S. I'm sure it hasn't escaped you, also, that by taking a stand on what women in France - and, by extension, women in Turkey - should wear, you are commenting on how Moslems should dress, as well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Truth Hurts



Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 115
Location: Truthville

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John

Shifting focus? Maybe I missed something here; I'm sorry I didn't know you were moderating this forum.

If it's okay with you, I'll shift back in at a later stage when things get a little more interesting, and when I'm given the "choice to shift".

Laters

TH
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cleopatra



Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear All,

I fear that once again, Truth Hurts, you are putting words into people's mouths. John never said Saudi women have to imitate"Western" women, and if you read his other posts, I'm sure you would agree that such an opinion would be contrary to what he normally writes.

As to the whole veiling issue, I've always thought that, like driving,it's a bit of a red herring. While "Westerners" get all hot and bothered about it, I've not met many Saudi women who are all that concerned one way or the other about either issue. For just about every Saudi woman I've met, veiling is simply a part of life - they put no more thought into veiling each morning as I would into putting on a coat going out the door. Of course, I have met a few who don't cover their faces and hate the thought of doing so. But they are a minority, at least in riyadh.

John, you talked about "choice". But I think the issue is a complex one. Ask any Saudi woman why she viels and she'll insist that she "chooses" to. Of course, you know and I know that if she so much as stuck her head outside the door without a full veil, her brothers would throw a fit.

What I'm saying is that most of the pressure on women to veil comes from their famlies and society at large. So far as I know, Saudi women are not under any legal obligation to cover their faces. In other words, technically speaking, Saudi women already to have a choice about whether or not to cover. Most, however, would not dare to challenge their families on this or on many other issues.

After all, most Emirati and Qatari women cover completely, despite their "liberal" societies.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12905
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Truth Hurts,
A not quite disarming but ingenuous reply. By "shifting the focus", I mean that you fall back to another issue when you don't want to answer the points made about the one under discussion. And this is a strategy/technique that I've seen you employ on a number of occasions.
I don't understand at all what my "moderating" or "not moderating" this forum has to do with it. And, of course, you're quite free to continue your technique as often as you want - or need - to. But it makes discussing specific issues almost impossible whenever you do so. The way I see it, dress, driving, etc. are all symptoms of what I think is an underlying problem, namely that Saudi women are generally not treated as responsible, adult, human beings. If they like being treated that way, then fine; that's up to them. But I KNOW for a fact that a good number of them chafe under the patronizing restrictions.
Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark100



Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 441

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This whole issue about veils brings up the problem of trying to literally interpret texts that were written a very long time ago and concern the society as it was over a thousand years ago.
Now i will admit there are some constants that are helpful as a means of regulating the behaviour of members of any society like not killing or stealing etc. but many other peripheral issues related to events and behaviour to a society that bears little resemblance to todays society.
Christian fundamentalists are just as guilty in this regard.
Literal interpretations of texts do not work and in many cases issues are not black or white but rather shades there of.
Bush 's recent statement " you are either for us or against us " neatly encapsulises this narrow attitude and betrays the complexity of life.
It is appealing to many to have simple rules to govern life and behaviour because it is far more difficult to deal with the real complex world we live in if we have a nice little ABC handbook.
Having said all of that the wearing of veils is a very minor issue when you look at the problems the Saudis are currently facing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12905
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:41 pm    Post subject: The Seven Ws Reply with quote

Dear Mark100,
But you know - all the problems intertwine. As I see it, there are (at least) 7 major problems facing the Kingdom. I call them the 7 Ws ( no, Dubya is yet another problem), and all of them are exacerbated by what's probably the single, overriding problem of all: rampant population growth.


1. Water: the depletion of the ground water (due in large measure to so much having been wasted on impractical - but psychologically valuable -agricultural projects) and the increased dependence upon desalination.

2. Work: unemployment, especially among Saudi young men.

3. Women: their disenfranchisement and exclusion from so many aspects of daily life.

4. Wahhabiism: the attraction of this puritanical, fundamentalist sect, again especially among young, often unemployed, Saudi males.

5. Wasta: the prevalence of wasta often taking precedence over ability, merit or justice.

6. Waste: the waste of time, money and resources (including human resources - see "Women" above) due to poor planning and, on occasion, tradition.

7. Whatever: OK, I cheated a little with this one. "Whatever" is my W for the "inshallah mentality", the notion that since Allah has already decided everything anyway, what difference do an individual's efforts make?

As I mentioned, they're all connected. So, while wearing the veil and women's driving ARE minor issues, they are part and parcel of the overall picture.
Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Truth Hurts



Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 115
Location: Truthville

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You crucially forgot:

Westerners in the region: particularly the self-important American variety Very Happy

TH
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12905
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:33 pm    Post subject: Thank God we're not the problem Reply with quote

Dear Truth Hurts,

"You crucially forgot:

Westerners in the region: particularly the self-important American variety "

Hey, I thank you for excluding me in that description. Although some might say I fit well the "self-important American" part, I haven't been "in the region" since last July. I guess scot47, not being an American, is also excluded, and so is Cleopatra, who's also left the Kingdom. Same for veiledsentiments. If you don't mind my asking, how long have you been "in the region"? And where in Saudi Arabia are you living/working?
You are an American, right? Good thing you added that modifier "self-important", which automatically excludes you. Very Happy
Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cleopatra



Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Truth Hurts,

Critical as I often am of "Western" expats in the Kingdom, I don't think they are a problem in and of themselves. Quite frankly, they're not significant or numerous enough to be a major issue. What IS a problem is continued Saudi dependence on foreingers, whether "Western" or other. While the number of "Westerner" will in all likliehood continue to dwindle as Saudiization proceedes, I don't think the time is yet imminent when we'll see large numbers of Saudis sweeping floors or waiting on tables.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Truth Hurts



Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 115
Location: Truthville

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cleo

You're right; the issues of course are far more complex than enlisting - in facile fashion - a number of words beginning with 'W'. Wouldn't it be great if life were so simple? W words for Saudi, S words for Bahrain, T words for Oman, L words for the USA and so forth. Smile

I was actually attempting to be a little facetious and in trying to do so came up with a W word, that naturally suggested itself to me. I fully agree that the issues are far more complex than this idea of Western culture simply perpetually imposing itself in the ME region. When I look at , for instance, images of Palestinian youths throwing rocks, I'm often struck by some of the symbols of American youth culture, e.g. baseball caps, jeans, marine style haircuts etc. An interesting theory that explains these contrdictions is proposed by Benjamin Barber in his book "Jihad Vs McWorld". Any body read that?

Returning to the focus of the present discussion, my impulse is summed up in the following attitude: "Just leave 'em alone!" I mean what happened to the good ol' days when travelers enriched their lives by learning from diverse peoples rather than diagnosing their problems?

TH


Last edited by Truth Hurts on Fri Jan 23, 2004 3:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12905
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 3:17 pm    Post subject: The truth won't hurt, will it? Reply with quote

Dear Truth Hurts,
Sorry that my "facile" diagnoses offend you - I assume, from what you wrote that you are enriching yourself by learning but abstain from any analyses. Well, each to his/her own. You've also abstained from answering my questions, which, of course, is your right. But I am curious about how long you've been in the Kingdom and whether you are an American, or a "Westerner". I believe you posted once that you are, but
my memory may be playing me false.
Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Truth Hurts



Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 115
Location: Truthville

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John

You're beginnng to sound like you work for Homeland Security. I'm sorry to dissapoint you but I normally don't give info on the Net. You'll just have to take my opinions in good faith.

TH
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12905
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 3:47 pm    Post subject: Top secret Reply with quote

Dear Truth Hurts,
My goodness - you mean telling us how long you've been in the Kingdom and your nationality would compromise your security? Well, as I said, it's certainly your right to keep all that to yourself. I have to wonder, though (having a skeptical nature) as to whether there might not be other reasons for you reluctance since I really can't see how providing the asked for information could be harmful to you in any way.
Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Truth Hurts



Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 115
Location: Truthville

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John

I guess I have some sort of morbid unexplianable fear that you've finally managed put your finger on. Shocked

TH
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Saudi Arabia All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Page 4 of 8

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2011 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Road2Spain - TEFL and Spanish with one year student visa
EBC