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Women in Saudi....
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12050
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 4:01 pm    Post subject: My apologies Reply with quote

Dear Truth Hurts,
Hey, that's OK. Sorry to press you on that. The main reason I asked was to get some idea of how much experience of the Kingdom you have. Not that quantity automatically translates into quality. I've known Westerners who lived on compounds for years and ever really experienced or got to know the Kingdom (and in many cases, had no desire to). But for those with inquiring minds - and you certainly seem to have one - the longer the stay, the more insight gained is, I'd say, a pretty good general rule.
Regards,
John
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Truth Hurts



Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 115
Location: Truthville

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John

No need to apologize at all. Perhaps we should just PM each other next time with personal queries.

And thanks for the debate. Appreciate it!

TH
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guest of Japan



Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just wanted to jump in and say I have read "Jihad vs. McWorld." It is a fantastic book and very visionary.

Not having lived in Saudi, I can't really offer much to the discussion, but I am very much enjoying reading everyones ideas.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12050
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 11:11 pm    Post subject: The Kingdom in the media Reply with quote

Dear guest of Japan,
I've heard of the book, and, based on your recommendation, I'll read it soon (if I don't like it, you'll get the bill). A couple of what I thought were very good articles about the Kingdom appeared not too long ago, one in (of all publications) Time magazine, the September 15th issue (I must admit, when I saw Time had a cover story on Saudi Arabia, I got out my highlighters and prepared to mark every one of the - I was sure - many places where they got it wrong. But by golly, they did a darn good job of it, in my opinion). The other was the October cover story of National Geographic, another very good article, I'd say. I also hear there's a piece in the January 5th issue of the New Yorker, but I haven't read that one yet.
Regards,
John
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Mark100



Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 441

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

truth hurts
I have to agree with johnslat here. You want to keep sniping and making inane comments, how about giving us some background info on yourself
I have lived and worked in Dhahran for quite a number of years and am Australian.
You see it isn't that hard to give some background.
You are not IMHO speaking from any position of strength or much knowledge judging from your posts.
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guest of Japan



Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I pay that bill in yen?

A brief summary of the book is that it exposes the diametrically opposed ideas of modern Capitalism and consumerism vs. fundamentalist movements. This is all old hat, but what makes it intriguing is that it then goes to show how interwoven the two are and how they expand their powers by borrowing ideas and techniques from each other.

These topics have been covered countless times since the book was first published, but I believe this was the first to do so. The supporting documentation for the ideas alone makes the book a valuable read.

Can you provide any weblinks for the articles you've mentioned? I don't live anywhere near a good library.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12050
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 11:42 pm    Post subject: No free lunch Reply with quote

Dear guest of Japan,
Unfortunately, both web sites - Time and National Geographic - require you to be a subscriber in order to access the stories. But I'll check around on the Net to see if anyone's "bootlegged" either one or both.
Regards,
John
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Truth Hurts



Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 115
Location: Truthville

PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark100 wrote:

You are not IMHO speaking from any position of strength or much knowledge judging from your posts.


Mark

Well, I guess you'll just have to take it or leave it.

TH
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Cleopatra



Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't all rush down to that Porache dealership, banat:

www.arabnews.com/?page=1&sechttp://tion=0&article=38586&d=25&m=1&y=2004

Here's another funny one:

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=38587&d=25&m=1&y=2004&pix=kingdom.jpg&category=Kingdom

Two things strike me:

Was Japan chosen as a possible 'model' because the fact that it is not "Western" makes it less contentious?

You have to laugh at their choice of country: the Koreans have been criticising the Japanese for years (wihout success, as far as I know) because of the 'selective treament' of WWll in their textbooks. Hence the Saudis use them as a reference point for educational 'reform'!
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ohman



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 239
Location: B' Um Fouk, Egypt

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a saying in Korea and Japan as well I believe about students in high school; something along the line of: he who gets five hours sleep a night will fall behind in life; he who sleeps four hours will succeed.

It is understood that the extra hour of lost sleep should be spent studying for the national exam.

Saudis, and Arabs by and large traditionally don't get in a full night's sleep. Obviously, the climate has long determined this tradition of working after sunset and, as long as the sun wasn't out, this was the opportune time to do business. The 8 - 4 working world brought with it air conditioners and offices but these things haven't changed the night people.

I wonder, do the sleep deprived high schoolers in Japan manage to stay alert in class or have they mastered the art of power napping their way through hour after hour of classes?
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12050
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 2:03 pm    Post subject: Idle hands Reply with quote

Mr. Friedman's latest - which addresses the subject of unemployment in the Arab/Muslim world. Needs some work, but not bad at all, I'd say.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/25/opinion/25FRIE.html?th

Regards,
John
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veiledsentiments



Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 15612
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't made it over to the Times yet this morning, but concerning our original topic of Women in Saudi.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43494-2004Jan23.html

I hope this link works, if not go to Washington Post.com and get the Sunday Outlook section.

VS
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Cleopatra



Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear me, John,

These references to Friedman seem to be becoming a regular occurence!

Do I suspect you are being "converted"?
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12050
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 10:24 pm    Post subject: Even Friedman's sometimes right: i.e. when he agrees with me Reply with quote

Dear Cleopatra,
Well, as I used to think about my "slower students" who would, very occasionally, give me a correct answer: even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Actually, pre-Iraqi invasion, I used to like a lot of what Friedman wrote. He had good contacts in the Middle East and, unlike a lot of his fellow pundits, he'd haul his bottom out of his chair, go out and do some real legwork and at least try to get a feeling for the prevailing moods and attitudes ( Short aside: in one of my classes here that I gave for Elderhostel on Saudi Arabia, I had the Pentagon "desk" for the Kingdom among the audience. Talking with him afterward, I learned that he had never been to Saudi Arabia - Hmm, what's wrong with that picture?)
I parted comapny with him when he began cheerleading the Iraqi invasion, but hey - everybody's entitled to one mistake, right? And in this article he speaks about what I think is one of the major problems presently facing the Arab/Muslim world and makes, in my opinion, anyway, some good points. For example:

"So if you take anything away from this series, I hope it's this: The war of ideas among Arabs and Muslims can only be fought and won by their own forces of moderation, and those forces can only emerge from a growing middle class with a sense of dignity and hope for the future. Young people who grow up in a context of real economic opportunity, basic rule of law and the right to speak and write what they please don't usually want to blow up the world. They want to be part of it. "

Ah, by the way, didn't you mean "reverted", rather than "converted"?

Regards,
John
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guest of Japan



Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That Japanese education article is hysterical. Every idea that the Saudi team praised about Japan is actually non-existent.

Teacher training and development - NO

Hands-on-learning - NO

Curriculum and Text Design - Have a look at what the ministry puts out and you will clearly see that they have no idea what they are doing.

Education in Saudi must truly be horrendous.

I'm sure what they really like is the way Japanese students become passive and accepting of those in power.
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