Job Discussion Forums

dmb · Joined: 12 Feb 2003 Posts: 8397

When talking about football teams I naturally say 'Man. Utd. are.....'
however usually when I read a newspaper it usually says'Man. Utd. is.....'
Which do you prefer and which is correct?
I tell my students both are correct. It depends on your view. If you look at the team as a collective then 'is' is correct. But if you look at the team as a group of 11 individuals then 'are'is correct.
What do you think? (Does it change from week to week?)
What's the grammar purist's point of view of this?

denise · Joined: 23 Apr 2003 Posts: 3419 Location: finally home-ish

OK, stupid question here: is this a British/American thing? If it is, I can't remember which is the American form! I think I would use whichever one just happened to come out of my mouth--both seem correct, for the reasons you stated. Unless, of course, the team name itself is plural, like (switching to baseball now for an example because I don't know many football teams) the San Francisco Giants. I can't imagine anyone using 'is' to refer to the team collectively.

d

denise · Joined: 23 Apr 2003 Posts: 3419 Location: finally home-ish

Another thought--it may depend on whether you refer to the city or to the team name itself.

San Francisco is (are?) a good team.
The Giants are a good team.

OK, get back to football now! Sorry for the interruption!

d

FGT · Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 762 Location: Turkey

As far as I'm aware this is not a UK/US situation, purely that there are some nouns that can be thought of as both singular (a team, a family, etc) or plural ( the eleven players, individual brothers and sisters, etc). I think this would even apply to a team with a plural name, "The Globetrotters is the most entertaining team I've ever seen" but I'm not sure about that.

But I am sure that I can equally say "Chelsea is great" as "Chelsea are great", I think I can say "My family is poor" or "My family are poor". As with most aspects of English language it's what's in the speaker's head that counts. Which other nouns can we use this with? Can we say "The government are debating...." or only "The government is debating..."?

"The fish is/are swimming" makes life so much easier. Why can't more nouns be like this?

And, personally, I would always say that Manchester United is/are a pile of ****!!!!

ls650 · Joined: 10 May 2003 Posts: 3484 Location: British Columbia

johnslat · Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:41 pm Post subject: Yea, team!

Although you'd think teams would follow the "rule" for group nouns:

e.g.

A: The class is taking a test right now.
B: The test is over and the class are going to their cars.

I've never heard "American football teams " - all of which, I believe have plural names (e.g. the NY Jets, the San Francisco 49ers, the New England Patriots, The NY Giants - yup, the Giants ARE a football team, too - the Miami Dolphins, etc.) used as anything but plural. However, the specific team name is often dropped and when that happens, then the team can be singular:

e.g.

A: New England is a great football team.
B: Indy ( the Indianapolis Colts ) is going to lose next weekend.

Regards,
John

leeroy · Joined: 30 Jan 2003 Posts: 777 Location: London UK

SueH · Joined: 01 Feb 2003 Posts: 1022 Location: Northern Italy

Speaking as an English football fan, and not a supporter of Man U, I can assure you that the common vernacular would be 'Man United are s**t'.

So if it comes to language as it is used I think my opinion on this little facet of language is final.

Nevertheless I will conduct further field research and get some confirmation for my viewpoint in the pub before my team's next home game.

johnslat · Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 11:42 pm Post subject: Groupies

Dear leeroy,
Yup, yup.
1. That Is the rule
2. You ARE just making it up as you go along.

However, in this example:

" "The class are rubbish" (Each individual student is bad)."
since you're talking about the class as a whole (each individual student is bad = they're ALL bad), I believe you'd need to write/say:

The class is rubbish.

Regards,
John

Hogbear · Joined: 12 Oct 2003 Posts: 42 Location: New York City

It's a British/American thing. Brits use the plural for all versions of a team -- e.g., "Mancester are the worst." Associated Press style (U.S.) just recently started using plurals for all sports teams' names -- e.g., "The Colorado Avalance are the best hockey team."

But the difference is even more distinct for band names, which Brits always treat as plural but Americans treat depending on the case of the word. For example:

Blake: "Limp Bizkit is the best, and the Beatles are the worst!"
Liam: "Limp Bizkit are crap, and the Beatles are the greatest."

CountryClub · Joined: 21 Oct 2003 Posts: 46 Location: China

I remember when I was studying German, the professor told the class that the following (English grammar) was correct;

The Police is � (responsible for law and order or whatever you like) but it sounds incorrect. Everyone I have heard, myself included, say the police are� I�m guessing this is a grammar rule that is so commonly broken that it is becoming irrelevant and thus causing so much confusion.

johnslat · Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:53 am Post subject: Never say never

Dear CountryClub,
Police and news are "opposite exceptions". Police, which looks singular, is always plural while news, which looks plural, is always singular. Oh, by the way never say always or never where grammar is concerned.

Hogbear · Joined: 12 Oct 2003 Posts: 42 Location: New York City

Wow... I never realized that exception existed. Thanks!

guty · Joined: 10 Apr 2003 Posts: 365 Location: on holiday

Hogbear is right
it is a uk/us thing, but creeping into the UK.
I was keenly aware of hearing the use of the singular for teams for the first time when I went to the US for the first time shortly after doing my Cert, it was during the European Championship and hearing
'Holland is playing well' grated Can you imagine Kenneth Woolstonholme using the singular, I doubt it.
However during the 90s it began to creep into UK usage and at the moment we seem to be in a crossover period where either are acceptable.
So while the aspect of whether the team is one unit or a collection of individuals may seem to account for this confusion, I simply think it is UK usage following the US once more.

Laura C · Joined: 14 Oct 2003 Posts: 211 Location: Saitama

It's one of those tricky ones.

Technically you should say 'Man U is...', as you are talking about a team, which is a singular unit. This is standard English I would think.

But it is one of those examples in English where using the other option sounds equally as good. I wouldn't correct a student for using 'are' in that context, as even native speakers will differ here.

It's the same as something like the plural of 'roof' -- it used to be 'rooves' only, but now so many people use 'roofs' that both are in the dictionary.

And hey, why is 'sh*t' the adjective of choice for Man U in this example?!

L