Job Discussion Forums

[johnslat]

Dear joeboe,

"Through mandates, France put it hands on Syria and Lebanon and England controlled Palestine. England helped the local rules in Jordan, Iraq, Kuwait, Bahrain, and UAE and supplied them with forces. The only modern countries that never witnessed any form of occupation are Iran and Saudi Arabia."

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_colonized_Middle_East

http://tinyurl.com/n9vxzs

"Saudi Arabia had been a pro-Western force during the Cold War and had hosted large coalition armies during the 1991 Gulf War. Saudi Arabia had not been colonized during its history, like other Middle Eastern states that had endured a legacy of European imperialism."

http://tinyurl.com/mftqhx

There are many more sources available. But what really matters is not what you or even I might think about Saudi Arabia's never having been colonized, but what the Saudis think about that. And I can assure you that they are VERY proud of their not having been colonized.

Ask a Saudi.

Regards,
John

[veiledsentiments]

I rather feel like I'm reading that old tale of the blind men describing an elephant based on what part of it is in their reach. Where you worked in the KSA is going to effect how much overt or slightly veiled racism you have seen or experienced. What a bizarre combination of skin color vs passport vs religion vs educational credentials it appears to take.

[johnslat]

Dear veiledsentiments,
But what you, I or joeboe might think doesn't really matter. It's what the Saudis think that matters:

"Moreover, the king and his countrymen were proud that their country had never been colonized, and at no time did they feel themselves inferior to their more technologically advanced guests. It was essential for the Americans to learn Saudi ways and treat Saudis as partners and co-equals."

http://tinyurl.com/mcnafr

I repeat: Ask a Saudi.

Regards,
John

[veiledsentiments]

Rather like how we pretend that their universities are "world-class"? ME education is pretty much smoke and mirrors, but on this board we need to be clear that the whole colonization thing is their opinion... not backed up by the facts.

We even play this game in our home country, don't we John? Do your eyes not roll every time you hear a group of Americans chanting "we're #1"? And so we are as long as you are talking about gun ownership and deaths by handgun.

VS

[johnslat]

Dear veiledsentiments,
Well, reality is never as important as perception. What's true will always take second-place to what people think is "real", no matter how much that conflicts with the facts. And boy - is that ever commonplace in the Kingdom, even more so than in many other countries.
Regards,
John

[Cleopatra]

[joeboe]

Cleopatra,

The only thing you are... is more hypocritical than 99% of Americans....and that is saying something , Sweetie.

If you were truly liberal, socialist, believed in women's rights, equality for all, etc. etc. You'd be a thousand miles from KSA.
What exactly do you do in Kingdom? Volunteer at a woman's shelter? Teach disadvantaged or handicapped kids? Do you ever donate blood, at least?
Or do you make a very nice salary in the employ of a Petrol Autocracy in cahoots with the likes of George W. and the Western Arms Industry?
If you want to lie to yourself fine...but, spare the rest of us.

[Cleopatra]

[johnslat]

Dear Cleopatra,
Do you actually snigger? Or is it more a giggle or a chuckle?

http://soundbible.com/tags-snigger.html

Regards,
John

[Cleopatra]

All of the above. Especially in this case.

[desultude]

I know people who are afraid to travel to challenging places because they don't want to witness the realities of the world (poverty, oppression, and ways of life they don't believe in).

If globalism will ever mean anything more than the international distribution of goods and oppression, it will be because people witness the truths of the world, and share values and opinions (by share I mean discuss and display, not promulgate).

I really think that we learn a lot when we teach in places like Saudi Arabia, as well as the students learn valuable things from us.

That being said, Saudi Arabia, and PMU, was one singular challenges in my life, and I don't plan to go back.

[12 Monkeys]

sheiker quoted

[Desert Storm]

I haven't signed on to this thing in years because of the great possibility of a post turning into a personal cyber war. However, in this case I do feel it appropriate to chime in.

On the subject of racism, it's a bit complex here in KSA. I've been here for five years and have gotten some gist of the complexities. I am African American (and Muslim) but educated which has made for varied experiences. I'll begin by saying not all Saudis are racist per se. I've met some gems.

I think it begins with xenophobia: not liking anyone 'not Saudi'. From that stems racism in the form of nationality and against skin color. In terms of hiring practices I agree that without appropriate qualifications it will be difficult to land a decent job anywhere in KSA. That has nothing to do with skin color. The main issue you would deal with, in my opinion, is the Saudi perception of who "a native speaker" is. It certainly ain't black folk or Pakistanis, sadly. There have bee countless times when Saudis have asked me where I'm from and when I mention I'm from America, they don't believe me. They insist I tell them where I'm really from....as if blacks have not lived in America for centuries. Case in point, if you're not "white" they will question you being originally American/British/Canadian etc.

In the classroom, I've never had any bad experiences with students. I fact, once they know one is "black American" they may start asking questions about Muhammad Ali, rappers, or actors because of how much pop culture they're exposed to. They have made comments regarding nationals from Asia which are unpleasant to hear at times.

On the street is a totally different issue. One glimpse at a big black man does not evoke "American" in many people's eyes. This is a reality. They will often assume you're from the Sudan or Nigeria. Fine, whatever. But there are instances where people may attempt to disrespect you because they think you're African and not American. I had two instances particularly where one man made a spitting gesture to me because I lightly honked the horn to someone blocking my in. In another instance at a supermarket an older gentleman elbowed me and threw my groceries in the air because he thought I cut him in line. These events don't happen often but they do happen. I could NEVER imagine this happening to any of my white colleagues...EVER.

As sad as it is, it's a reality. So, for those of you planning to come to Saudi who are black know that this something you will need to deal with for sure. I think it is more intense in the Central region than in a place like Jeddah or Dammam where the people are a bit more civilized and cultured. Racism is one of the dumbest/most senseless human traits known to humankind....but it does exist unfortunately.

I say dumb because you don't really see white sheep not mixing with black sheep...or brown horses not interacting with white ones...black cows not pasturing with brown ones...all species exist in variations. In the animal kingdom I'm not sure there are any instances of preference based on hide colors...yet the great human...the thinking being... among this species some find it perfectly acceptable.

[Stephen Jones]

[saif]