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working Paris aside from ESL teaching...
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Hot2GlobeTrot



Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 82
Location: Calgary, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:18 am    Post subject: working Paris aside from ESL teaching... Reply with quote

I wont be able to make ends meet with just ESL teaching, so I'd be looking for a nighttime/ weekend job (put aside private tutoring for now) . Any idea what kind of money one can expect for say waiter at a midlevel restaurant? (assume i'll have passable french)
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PeterBar



Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 145
Location: La France profonde

PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'll get the SMIC if you can find a job.
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Hot2GlobeTrot



Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 82
Location: Calgary, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeterBar wrote:
You'll get the SMIC if you can find a job.


SMIC?
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PeterBar



Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 145
Location: La France profonde

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The SMIC is the minimum wage -

I've also just noticed your location. If you don't have a passport from an EU country you will find legal work exceptionally difficult to obtain. Look back through the topics on this site and you will see complete discussions on the subject.
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Hot2GlobeTrot



Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 82
Location: Calgary, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have dual British/ Canadian citizenships, at least i will by the time i go there. My dad's english...

and i realize minimum will be the wage for waiters, but of course waiters/ bartenders live on tips, no? I read that 15% is included in every bill as gratuity. I was just wondering if anyone on here had worked as a waiter or bartender and could relate experience

plus, having multiple languages (at least passable french, passable russian, italian and english) i'd assume that'd fit well in the international/ touristy hotels and bars...
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riverboat



Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 113
Location: Paris, France

PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's actually customary not to tip serving staff in Paris. The idea is that the restaurants factor the cost of service into the price of the menu, and then directly into the wages of the staff. There is no "extra" gratuity then added to the bill at the end, and it's usual not to leave anything extra in cash, unless you have been particularly happy with the service and are feeling generous. Or have a spare euro or so in change.

Therefore, as I understand it, for waiters/waitresses/bar staff, the minimum wage (think its somewhere between 8 and 9 euros per hour?) actually includes money that you would otherwise get from tips. And you're taxed on it.

I don't have first hand experience of this, other than being able to confirm that neither me nor anyone else I know leaves tips anywhere, but it's what I understand the situation to be, from what I've picked up here.
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Hot2GlobeTrot



Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 82
Location: Calgary, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

minimum wage cant be calculated including tips because you dont know what the amount of tips will be...no? Min wage is a national decree as i understand it, at least here in Canada (actually by province but same idea). So every person working at a job earns at least X.

here in Alberta Canada, min wage is $8.80. So a server gets 8.80/ hr then tips. Most servers in mid level restaurants take home about $150/shift in tips.

What i read in france is that the tip is 15% included into the bill. What i read is that this was done in order to be able to tax tips as well as wage, because why would i make sure to list all my tips as taxable income?

If i were to work in a mid level, relatively high turn over restaurant/ pub/ bar, and prices are higher in Paris than they are where i live, 15% tip will work out, presumably, to even more than it would here. So if the 8.82 euro minimum wage includes tips, the restaurant keeps like 80% of the tip pool, which a) seems out of touch with what i know of french labor laws and b) would seem to preclude both decent service from servers and ability to attract people to the work
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 9132
Location: On a Short Leash

PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tipping customs are very different in Europe overall from N. Am. The very general rule is that waitstaff are paid what is considered a fair standard wage. Tips are much smaller everywhere than you'd expect in North America, and they do not form a vital percentage of one's take-home pay. (no, I don't moonlight at a restaurant, but I've friends who work in them in several European countries)


Tips here in the Netherlands, for example, are generally MUCH smaller than you would expect in Alberta, Canada (I lived in Calgary for two years, so I have a clue about what it's like where you're from). Here if the bill is, say 12.45, you'd give the waitperson 13.00 and everyone's happy.

This is quite common across the region. Further, I think it's far more common for tips to go into a communal pool, and to be divided equally among all staff.

As for the question of how staff are motivated to give good service: well, waiting tables is a far more stable job in Europe for the most part as compared with N. Am. It's not uncommon to see the same waitstaff at a restaurant for really years and years. This is because they have stable incomes and benefits - and that's probably where the 15 or whatever % is included in the bill goes, to paying for the 'extras' that staff are entitled to.
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Hot2GlobeTrot



Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 82
Location: Calgary, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spiral78 wrote:
Tipping customs are very different in Europe overall from N. Am. The very general rule is that waitstaff are paid what is considered a fair standard wage. Tips are much smaller everywhere than you'd expect in North America, and they do not form a vital percentage of one's take-home pay. (no, I don't moonlight at a restaurant, but I've friends who work in them in several European countries)


Tips here in the Netherlands, for example, are generally MUCH smaller than you would expect in Alberta, Canada (I lived in Calgary for two years, so I have a clue about what it's like where you're from). Here if the bill is, say 12.45, you'd give the waitperson 13.00 and everyone's happy.

This is quite common across the region. Further, I think it's far more common for tips to go into a communal pool, and to be divided equally among all staff.

As for the question of how staff are motivated to give good service: well, waiting tables is a far more stable job in Europe for the most part as compared with N. Am. It's not uncommon to see the same waitstaff at a restaurant for really years and years. This is because they have stable incomes and benefits - and that's probably where the 15 or whatever % is included in the bill goes, to paying for the 'extras' that staff are entitled to.


but if the tip is a set %, which it is, then tips in a communal pool will still be about what you'd take if it wasnt communal, over the long haul (same tip % and ordering off same menu)

if restaurants/ bars are more expensive in Paris/ Europe how would the tips be significantly less than N America (taxes aside)? Does the management keep a large portion of it? I guess what i'm thinking is that the overall chargeouts in a Paris restaurant will be similar if not more than here, and the tip is already given at a similar % to here, so why is the take home of the waiter significantly less (taxes aside)?

what are the extras the staff are entitled to? beyond benefits accrued from taxation...

stable or not, how is 8.82/ hr sans tips a happy wage, anywhere, but especially Paris, the 5th or whatever most expensive city in the world?
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PeterBar



Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 145
Location: La France profonde

PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An interesting arguement between people in France (and other European countries) who know what happens here, and someone who is yet to arrive and presumes to know what happens here.

On another point. I know that Canada allows dual citizenship. However I don't believe that the UK does so.

If that is the case, and if you expect to benefit from your father's nationality, I assume that you would be required to give up your Canadian citizenship before you could obtain British nationality and benefit from being part of the E.U.

Of course, I may well be wrong, but...............
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Hot2GlobeTrot



Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 82
Location: Calgary, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeterBar wrote:
An interesting arguement between people in France (and other European countries) who know what happens here, and someone who is yet to arrive and presumes to know what happens here.

On another point. I know that Canada allows dual citizenship. However I don't believe that the UK does so.

If that is the case, and if you expect to benefit from your father's nationality, I assume that you would be required to give up your Canadian citizenship before you could obtain British nationality and benefit from being part of the E.U.

Of course, I may well be wrong, but...............


well, my sister got her UK citizenship without difficulty.

And no i dont know what happens over there, hence, i ask.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 8640
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. A post on an EFL forum about how to get non-EFL-related work. Busting tables no less.

Ah what a profession! Othe threads have been locked for less, though....
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PeterBar



Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 145
Location: La France profonde

PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may well be wrong about dual Nationality, as I stated, however..................

I've been living and working in France for 18 years so I do know a little about working and living here.
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Hot2GlobeTrot



Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 82
Location: Calgary, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

okay, then you might be able to give proper advice...?

all i want to know is what a waiter can expect to make, all in, tips, wage, minus taxes etc.
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 9132
Location: On a Short Leash

PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolling Eyes We're obviously not waiters. The forum's for ESL/EFL teachers.

I can tell you what my friends in the restaurant business in Europe say, but they're not specifically in Paris.

What they say: 1. the job is fundamentally different to waiting tables in North America, because people generally STAY in the job long-term. Far less turn-over, fewer chances a foreigner with accented French will walk into a job in any case.
2. tips amount to very little


Really, I think the regulars on this forum have probably done all we can on this question.

Now, your turn, hot2trot. When exactly are you coming over? We will be EXTREMELY interested in what you find in general as you get started in Europe. Further, I'm sure your input once you get here will be useful to other newbies. Please do keep us posted.
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