Job Discussion Forums

[Nexus II]

I have been noticing more and more people coming to do EFL with degree in Eduaction, primarily from the US.

These teachers tend to be more dedicated and responsible, than many of the other folks I've encountered over time in South East Asia.

Anyone else notice this?

Because of the global downturn, particularly from the US, I think the entire EFL market in South East Asia, is changing.

[sg9015]

In a global downturn, people tend to be less choosy and are sometimes just happy to be employed. A degree in Education would tend to suggest that they have an interest in education and that they are looking to use EFL to pad their CV out and to distinguish themselves from others that have completed their degree and haven't attempted to test their knowledge in a classroom.

Are you referring specifically to your experience in Vietnam? Your statements are rather general. Just how many people have you come across with the ed degree compared to people with other qualifications? Do they have CELTA's or Trinity?

[wasted_ace19]

Does this post strike anyone else as a bit pathetic?

I've not been using this, or any other, efl vietnam forum for very long...but it seems to me its a time of a lot of uncertainty and negativity. The work permit issue is obviously the huge one, but also "little things" like the attempted facebook ban etc...combined with the worldwide recession, it all adds up to increasing levels of worry for most people. Its basically a time where people are logging on here to;

(i) get a clear, rational, balanced picture of what the situation is regarding many issues; and the overall efl vietnam picture.

(ii) at least try and establish some actual FACTS

(iii) dare I say it, get some positive vibes; not with the intention of deluding oneself, but simply to keep ourselves feeling good about what is a fantastic profession and country (vietnam). It takes a lot of effort to get a CELTA/TEFL, save up the money to move to other side of the world, get a job in a foreign culture etc then stick it out for a long time.

Now, clearly, like we're seeing with the work permit issue, facts/reality always take priority over 'postive vibes'. EFL Vietnam has (i assume) never actually been the land of milk and honey, but I'm guessing it is even less so now than ever before.

Its great that we have forums to discuss problems, great or small- if we didnt have any of these, there'd be little need for forums.

But what annoys me is when, at times like these, people shovel more MOD EDIT into the fire with pretty much meaningless, factless and pointless little posts like the one above.

OF COURSE jobs are harder to find in a global recession, we dont need reminded of that. Some people might actually be walking into great jobs right now, but yes, on average, we should assume we're going to find things more difficult. What we dont need are spontaneous tit-bits of negativitiy that the person posting probably forgets all about in a few days, but simply serve to worry and frustrate everyone who reads them.

Yes- the comments are 'a little general'. The word 'vietnam' , or other country, isn't even mentioned. This is purely an article about teaching in the USA, and fails to acknowldge the fact that, in turn, the Asian market is expanding. Not many people (certainly not me) are naive enough to think they're giving away great jobs with tokens off packets of rice, and clearly, there will be more well-qualified, ACTUAL teachers coming over from the west, but before making comments about the state of EFl SE Asia, lets have a balanced assesment before we have everyone (especially newcomers, or people not yet arrived even) running for th hills in a state of panic.

[motown]

[bailey73]

Thanks wasted_ace19. I'm new to these forums, new to EFL (just now finishing up my certification) and joined to get some perspective and some hints into teaching overseas. If this site was the only indication of how things are in the overseas teaching world, I would assume it was all doom and gloom. I'm very much interested in teaching in Vietnam in 2010 and would love some hints and advice that is slightly less than hysterically negative.

[wasted_ace19]

I wish I could give you some! I'm pretty much in the same position; finished my celta last month. I've booked a flight though- that's probably your first stop! Seriously though some might say securing a job is your first point of call, but to be honest I cant see myself agreeing to anything before i get there. Its hard to know who to ask about that one because everyone already there did only one of those two approaches, which evidently worked for them evetually; I think if we "turn up" (for want of a better phrase) with a degree and celta/tefl, we'll be fine eventually.

There are that many (naive) people who say "Oh, if you speak english you just show up and you can walk into a job" (i.e. without degree and/or celta), to mean that if one DOES have the credentials, they will, probably with a fair amount of graft, get a job, or perhaps two or three part-time.

These forums are a fantastic resource (this one seems the most popular), and I suppose the closest the EFL world comes to having a strong sense of "unionisation" (at least of a spiritual sort- can't see Dave standing up for you in an employment tribunal but you know what i mean). That's why I get annoyed when people overemphasise negativity through them. Or rather, when the forum format (as it were) has the effect of overemphasising problems of it own accord.

Obviously, problems such as the work permit thing are very real, and people need to be aware of them to prepare and deal with them, but what you need to remember about forums is that people WITH the problems are far more likely to be logging on and contributing than those who are having none whatsoever.

On the one hand, this is good becuase it makes everyone reading the threads acutely aware of what the 'worst case scenario' would be for them, and allows everyone to prepare for the worst i.e. "I will also have huge problems when I arrive, or have stayed for three months, so I really need to get those documents notarized".

But on the other hand, it essentially has to be giving a somewhat distorted picture- to guys like us most notably, because this is one of our very few sources of 99% unbiased information.


First case in point: I have a couple of good mates out there already having a blast. They work for language link in hanoi; a reputable school. They don't use these forums (I tell them they should, but sometimes I wish I never had- right now my arse starts knitting socks every time I log on). I'm back here in scotland logging on, then facebooking them a big stressed out thing about what I'm reading (essentially 'are you having the same problems, lads?'). The answer is always 'no'. In fact, and this is big enough to warrant my posting a separate thread on the matter, one of them has JUST GOT A 6-MONTH VISA EXTENSION. Now if you've been reading the other threads on that issue, you'll probably think either me or my mate's bullshitting you, but i assure I'm not and I can't think why he would be.

Second case in point: FACEBOOK. Starting a few weeks ago, huge panic (by those smart enough to realise that FB isn't just a silly means to 'like' one another's photos of drunken nights out, but probably the most efficient means of keeping contact with friends and family at home and in vietnam.) Its getting banned. Its been banned. Most people logging in to the forum say they cant log on etc etc. They aren't LYING; there is an issue. But again, I ask my mates in hanoi; they know about the subject, but at their school the technicians quickly changed the settings- they can use FB normally. At home, or in the inetrnet cafes, they use Facebook Lite, like everyone else in the country.

But now that everyone over there has realised the same thing, the forum thread has run cold. I dont see anyone posting new 'problems', but my point is that nobody logs on to report a lack of problems either. Anyone reading the thread now assumes there's a total blackout...but ask anyone there already and they'll say it was a storm in a teacup.

Basically what I'm saying is certainly NOT "Everyone chill out, it's all fine, and these forums just worry people so don't listen to them." I know there are problems; the government censorship issue, the work permit issue, probably a host of other panics if one looks through all the old threads. But remember that for every person logging on to contribute, there are a hundred other EFL Vietnam teachers out there who haven't yet, and that online forums (like all forms of media) cannot help but 'naturally' overemphasise negativity.

Would you log on and start a new thread saying "Today I have no problems, and haven't for ages. I'm happy in my job, I love my colleagues, and most of all I love vietnam"?? No, becuase if you did people would wonder why you were wasting your time in such a way- they would think you were weird- that simply isn't what forums are for, shut up. Which is what I'm going to do now. Good luck

[wasted_ace19]

by the way I'm not for a second suggesting the work permit thing is anything like the storm in a teacup that the FB issue was. Sorry if i gave that impression there.

I knwo that a lot of people are having serious problems with this at the moment, and I wish them luck. My apologies

[mark_in_saigon]

I would say that the original poster makes an argument that is worthy of discussion. I have heard recruiters over there (westerners) disparage the mindset of many of the long term teachers. Now, you can agree or disagree, but there has to be some sliver of truth in there somewhere, about irresponsibility. I am often surprised and embarrassed about my fellow westerners over there, they certainly seem to be having a wilder time than we do here in Kansas, Toto. Now, is the �irresponsibility� greater than what one would encounter among the general population in the west? Perhaps, or perhaps not. In the general population of teachers in the west? I suspect so. Whatever the degree, I think it is a valid question, because I think it may be part of what is driving the changes from the VN government, which I find to be a fascinating question. It is well known that Russia is studying China�s system of economic capitalism coupled with government control of social issues. Notice it is now being reported that Iran is attempting new systems of control. I think VN is also trying to find a new way of managing their system. I do think it is interesting and valid to consider various reasons for what is going on there today.

This forum is 99% unbiased information? I would suspect that figure is a little high. I think it is quite possible that some folks would discourage potential new teachers in order to keep the supply low. How odd would that be? Basic economic theory. People do what is in their self interest. Actually, I think that often the people who are rather new to this, or on their ways over, often have the least biased and most interesting commentary. You can agree or disagree, but I would say, if you do not like what you are reading, study the subject some more, perhaps you will learn something that will add to the knowledge of the subject, and if you just don�t like what you are reading, read something else instead. It is quite easy to see who is posting, if you have concluded he is overly negative, uninformed, misinformed, whatever, just skip his posts. Simple enough. I hope very much that the original poster, as well as everyone else, states their honest beliefs, and I hope we do not discourage the newcomers from posting what they believe to be relevant information. I think that is the main point of the forum, is to get additional, relevant information. There is often some very good information on the forums, but quite often you will notice that the moderators have to actually warn people about their postings, there is so much negativity and carping. My only real complaint with the original poster�s comment was he put it out there with very minimal background, then coupled it with a story that was not too relevant to his point.

[sg9015]

Everyone I know has got around the Facebook issue. It isn't difficult and I suspect nobody is talking about it as such because it is no longer an issue in terms of access.

I would say that schools are having a problem recruiting sufficient qualified native speaker teachers at the moment. Because of the clamp-down on the Visa situation, it is very risky for them to have a full-time backpacker on the staff. The backpackers want the comfort of guaranteed hours and because they don't see the finances adding up ($14 per hour, maybe 20 hours p/w if they are lucky, 3-6 months and then you are pretty much stuffed), they aren't making the move here. So, they do have a problem recruiting.

I think that a qualified teacher now has greater bargaining power and LESS competition. But, and here is the negative part, do you with your hard earned degree and CELTA want to work for $14-$15 per hour, less if contracted with accomodation? These are the places that you could walk into a job tomorrow. Because of the economic climate, some schools have tightened their belts and this figure seems fairly fixed.

This forum is full of subversives who know that it has a wide readership and are looking out for number 1. I am in Saigon but have no hidden agenda other than to tell you how it is from my own personal experience. If you come here, I reckon you will love it. Vietnam and Saigon has really grown on me these past 4 months.

[inky]

I can truthfully say that (to partially quote from wasted ace above) "today, and most days, I have no problems, and haven't for ages. I'm happy in my job, I love (most) of my colleagues, and most of all I love Vietnam." I would add that the students are fantastic, they make all the small annoyances dissolve away to nothing. Nay-sayers on here accuse me of having "an agenda" and of looking at Vietnam "through rose-colored glasses."

There are jobs here, good jobs, and as long as you bring the required documentation and present yourself as a competent person, you can find work. Thank you for providing people with your positive viewpoint, I'm sure that many will find it to be quite helpful.

[Nexus II]

[BenE]

[wasted_ace19]

Just out of interest what/where's R and R?

[jb0072009]

Well as a person in charge of hiring teachers here I have seen huge amounts of apps from the US and Thailand. Most were very qualified, some even with PhD's in English. Even for part time jobs they are willing to relocate here at their expense. I do know that this year in Cali they let go many thousand of teachers (28,000 in LAUSD alone). I guess the situation in Thailand is bad too.

[Rock Hopper]

MOD EDIT

Mean while in lovely HCMC life is what you wish it to be. Living is cheap, food is wonderful, characters abound, lovely people, desperadoes of cause are about ever diligent for an opportunity to lighten your load. Traffic reminds one of ants on the move without direction.

Teaching opportunities abound but getting "pickie" as fingers have been burnt. Both employers & employees. Give Asia Pacific a big miss.

Schools springing up making a dollar main objective caveat emptor.