Job Discussion Forums

[Jayray]

I believe that the age limits that ones see in the job ads are actually preferences set by the school and advertised by the recruiters.

[colonel]

[Chris_Crossley]

[Hamish]

James Fallows
03 Dec 2009 01:19 am
Foreign teachers in China: 老师 who are not too 老
The Chinese word for teacher is laoshi (老师); the first character, 老, means "old" and almost always has an honorific rather than a disparaging connotation. When a young Chinese person would call me 老方 -- Lao Fang, "Old Mr. Fang," Fang being for a while the Chinese version of my family name (story for another time) -- it was meant in a nice way. I don't remember anyone calling me 胖方-- Pang Fang, "Fat Mr. Fang" -- but if they had that would have been complimentary too.

Given the respect for 老师 and 老-ness in general, I noted a report from James Bishop, an American who with his wife has taught English at Baoding University, in Hebei Province, since the early 2000s, that he was being told to leave the country because of his age. He writes:

"China is purging foreign teachers over the age of 60. No new visas. and no exception I know of anywhere in the country. I am on a forum that connects hundreds of teachers here. Smart ain't it? Thus, no retired teacher, those with the most training and experience and the least likely to chase young Chinese women, can be hired into schools that desperately NEED trained teachers who have actually earned their degrees from accredited institutions."

I wrote back to ask how long he had been in the country, and he said:

"7.5 years at the same shop. We were honored with the 'Friend Of China' medal in recognition of our teaching efforts. Many modernizations and upgrades of our department were initiated by Sallie and myself. We have the only room dedicated to the use of English I know of in China (It is equipped with furniture and several hundred DVDs we purchased ourselves, two computers connected to the Internet, a satellite TV system providing access to foreign English language broadcast, and many books and magazines.), nightly full length English language films free of charge to the students, a student newspaper, mid day English free talks, 'seminars,' and an 'English only' rule within the building resulting in acknowledged improvement in oral English skills among the faculty and student body. The decision is being made by people who have no connection with, or concern for, the quality of English language instruction in China."

In the big sweep of China's problems and injustices, this is not that heartbreaking. I mention it partly out of sympathy for the people involved -- but partly too as corrective data for outsiders tempted to think that all efforts in China are seamlessly aimed toward the shrewdest and most efficient pursuit of the nation's developmental goals. A lot happens because of accident, mistake, or foolishness.

Bishop says that he and his wife "are looking for new worlds to conquer."

[mike w]

[/quote]China is purging foreign teachers over the age of 60. No new visas. and no exception I know of anywhere in the country.[quote]

Sorry, but that simply is not true. I know a good number of teachers in Beijing who are over 60 (and over 70), some of whom have recently (within the last two months) had their RP's and FEC's renewed.

I also know of one in the UK who has this week been issued his Z visa to come and start work at a university in Shanghai.

[Hamish]

[mike w]

I know at least 14 over 60's here in Beijing, three of which have recently had their RP's and FEC's renewed.

Clearly, the rule depends in some measure on where one is applying

What rule? Let me reiterate an earlier post:

Not necessary to get round it - an upper age limit for foreign employees does not exist.

This has been looked into by both my company, and a couple of lawyer friends (Chinese and foreign) and there is no legal retirement age or unemployable age for foreigners.

Some provinces push the issue because of the perceived risk of increased health problems with increased age, or they simply prefer younger teachers.

Some schools may push it for the same reasons, or simply as a ruse to get rid of someone.

But is has no legal basis.

Could it be that Chinese regulations are enforced differently in the nation's capital than they are in the boondocks

There is no "could"about it. The interpretation and enforcement of regulations can not only differ between provinces, but also between cities within the same province. This doesn't just apply to the issue of RP's and FEC's to foreigners, but covers other issues as well that apply to Chinese, such as the issue of passports. For example the rules for a Chinese national obtaining a passport in Heilongjiang are completely different to those in Xinjiang (before the recent problems - I suspect they have tightened up even more now).

[Hansen]

Mike W,

Are these people getting 1 year or 6 month visas? I have a one year contract, a one year FEC, and a six month visa. Last year they started with the 6 month visa. I'm not sixty, either.

I asked about it at the PSB and was told that the directive to issue six month visas "came down from above."

Last year, after bringing this up on the board, a guy in the same province said he had just gotten a 1 year visa from the same office.

Any insight?

As for the foreign employee age limit, is an employee classified the same as an FT?

[mike w]

[Hamish]

There is rapidly growing evidence of a change in how the 'non existant' over 60 rule is being enforced. The suggestion it is not coming from a central authority is being countered by multiple instances of PSB and FAO functionaries in widely separated offices justifying their new attitude with 'orders from above.'

[coledavis]

I'm still inclined to think that there is general age prejudice. This is anecdotal, as it only relates to my experience and I can't be sure of the reasons, but I've recently applied for several jobs. Almost every application via cv receives an enthusiastic response. Then they ask for a recent photo (I'm 52, by the way) and my passport (UK) and that's it: I hear nothing further from the recruiters.

[The Ever-changing Cleric]

just a string of bad luck for you then cole. there are plenty of chinese schools that will hire a 52 year old easily. i've worked at four different places in china and most of my current and former colleagues have been over 50. keep trying, you'll succeed.

[coledavis]

Thanks. That's helpful.

[tomstone]

I'm 56; not only am I the oldest teacher at this college I'm the oldest PERSON. Period. I renewed my contract yesterday. The FAO told me about a technicality about foreign teachers over 60, but it's not enforced very stringently. He just went a took a class at the Immigration Department and he heard about it and passed it on to me. I got the impression it was used as an excuse to weed out undesirables.

[Moon Over Parma]

The guy in the article Hamish cut and pasted is in Baoding, Hebei. Over the last few months, Hebei has become very picky about foreigners.

In the provincial capitol, Shijiazhuang, an overwhelming number of hotels that normally allowed any paying guests with legal I. D. (passport) are now off limits to laowai. It appears that only the hotels charging 200 RMB a night and up for the same quality of room you used to be able to get for 120-170 RMB a night can have foreigners. (note that I roll my eyes as I type that, since it's clearly a racist business scam from someone higher up, and eagerly approved by the local hoteliers without protest, I bet!). You now get the luxury of paying more for a hotel in Shijiazhuang than you would in world class international Chinese cities like Shenzhen, Suzhou, Beijing, Shanghai, Dalian and Xi'an.

A colleague has had trouble getting his Z visa transfered and FEC authorized by the university. They dicked around for several months and finally told him that he will have to go to Hong Kong and come in on a new visa. This is the FAP telling him this, as well as informing the school. I have a friend in Handan who had similar issues. I think this age thing in Baoding is either a mandate from Zhongnanhai, or just as likely: some *beep* calling the shots in Shijiazhuang wants to make the lives of foreigners more difficult just because he can. I bet that poor guy can land work in another province, especially if he receives an enthusiastic recommendation from the university that got screwed by the slightly xenophobic tide taking shape in Hebei.