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Racism in Asia????????
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Which country provides the most and best opportunities for black EFL instructors?
Japan
33%
 33%  [ 2 ]
Hong Kong
50%
 50%  [ 3 ]
Taiwan
16%
 16%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 6

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deshell32



Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:38 am    Post subject: Racism in Asia???????? Reply with quote

I am a black American who has been employed in Korea as an EFL instructor for almost 9 months. I have a little more than 3 months left, and I can't wait to leave. I have lost a lot of respect for Korea due to their very nationalistic attitudes, and what I find to be a general dislike for non-Koreans especially non-koreans who are also non-white. I am debating between Japan, Taiwan, and Hong Kong for my next stop as an EFL instructor. I have a Master of Science degree in International & Comparative Education (no type of teacher certification) and one year of experience (Korea). Which country do you think will be easier for me to obtain employment in? Which country do you think would be less likely to not let color negatively affect my odds of obtaining employment? Any mention of unbiased schools will also be beneficial. Thank you very much for your input.
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chi-chi



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 127
Location: Back in Asia!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hong Kong will offer the best quality of life (for anyone-English is widely spoken), but will be the hardest to get into (even for the typical caucasian person.)
Right now there is ONE Hong Kong job on Dave's board.
Japan is the next best as far as quality of life, lower overt racism (from what I've heard) but is also "hard to get into" because MANY people are leaving Korea right now and going there to look for work. With the exception of Hong Kong, I've heard Japan referred to as "the promised land" for ESL.
Taiwan: offers the lowest standard of the three, but is quite easier to get into than the other two places. IT WILL BE BETTER THAN KOREA THOUGH. (At least that's what I hear-I have never worked outside of Korea but have been researching on this quite a bit.)
If you are trying to pay off student loans and such (in other words, you NEED to make some decent money) then don't bother looking anywhere besides these three places you mentioned. (Except for the Middle East countries, but you have to have a Master's degree to get into the Middle East.) Anyway as far as making money stick with what you're looking at, the other places will offer you a good life in THAT country with the pay but will not help you pay off student loans (Example China.)
For what it's worth, I am also leaving Korea, and Taiwan is the only place that seems to be interested in me-but I think that has to do with so many people leaving Korea right now also.)
Good luck. This may not answer all of your questions, but I hope it helps.
Chi-Chi
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:10 am    Post subject: off topic, sorry Reply with quote

chichi,
Could you please explain what you mean by the fact that you "heard Japan referred to as "the promised land" for ESL".

I ask, rather off this thread's topic, only because I have another thread going with questions on this very thought. Specifically, what have you heard, where did you hear it, and when did you hear it? Thank you in advance.
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chi-chi



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 127
Location: Back in Asia!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I heard it somewhere here on Dave's, I don't remember exactly which board this was stated on.
Those words were specifically used in response to someone who thought that getting work in Japan would be "easy" (don't recall if that person had a degree or not.)
They said something along the lines of less xenophobia, better pay (although the cost of living is indeed higher) better treatment of minorities, and better living conditions (ie housing) than here in Korea.
The person seemed to put out that Japan was a much more liveable country (overall) than many other places to teach ESL. But much harder to find work, hence the comment "the promised land."
I don't remember who it was or when that was stated...just that sentence and those other foggy details...
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12903
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear deshell32.
Can't help you out with those specific coutries, but here's an observation based on 60 years of living in a lot of different places:
There's racism everywhere - and to about the same degree, everywhere. Because there are approximately the same percentage of idiots everywhere.
Regards,
John
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 12487
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 8:03 am    Post subject: universality of racism Reply with quote

I agree with John S. about the universlity of Racism.

You could do worse than try Saudi Arabia. If you ahve American citizenship you will be treated reasonably. Don't know about those with Nigerian or Ghanaian passports though !
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deshell32



Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course I realize racism is going to exist everywhere, but I am just simply searching for a country where it might affect me to a lesser degree. Thank you all for your comments. And I didn't quite understand the last comment pertaining to Saudi Arabia.
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deshell32



Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:12 am    Post subject: Possibly the ME? Reply with quote

Can anyone tell me what the odds are of landing a job in a Middle East country are with a MS (not arts) in education and only one year experience? My Master of Science degree is in International & Comparative Education. Instead of focusing on the actual teaching methods of school, it focused on social issues relating to education such as vouchers, teacher autonomy, public v. private schools, school bureaucracies, etc, etc.
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:06 pm    Post subject: I see Reply with quote

chichi,

The promised land does not mean Japan is where it is "much harder to find work". I can't even understand that kind of definition. Promised land means a real boon, a godsend, a wonderful place where dreams come true (and usually quite easily). This is far from how most of us would describe Japan.

Yes, as you said, SOMEONE posted that Japan has "less xenophobia, better pay (although the cost of living is indeed higher) better treatment of minorities, and better living conditions (ie housing) than here in Korea. " That does not make it a real boon, a godsend, a wonderful place where dreams come true (and usually quite easily). Just better (in that person's mind) than Korea.

SOMEONE wrote " Japan was a much more liveable country (overall) than many other places to teach ESL.", eh? Do you live in Japan? I do, and have since 1998. Have YOU lived in many other places including Japan? If you can't even recall who said such things, it's not really a good idea to spout such claims.

I am harping on this fairly seriously because I really get frustrated when someone relays secondhand information with little to no supportive facts. This is NOT a vindictive post, nor a personal attack on you.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12903
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear dashell32,
Well, for starters, more info would be needed:
Are you male or female, married or single, how old are you and do you have any overseas teaching experience?
But, with the qualifications you mentioned, I'd say it'd be tough to get a decent job with a good salary and good working conditions. Most, if not all, of the " respectable " employers require an MA in TESOL or Linguistics, although English Ed can sometimes sneak through. You might try places such as the American School in Riyadh, grades 1st through 12th, I believe, where many ex-pats send their kids. I know some people who work there; they like it and the salary's decent.
Regards,
John
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12903
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear dashell32,
My mistake: it's K - 10th grade.
Here's a web site that gives some general info and contact numbers / e-mail address.

http://www.state.gov/m/a/os/1517.htm

Regards,
John
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arioch36



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't want to make the mistake of saying people from Taiwan are the same as peple from China, but I have several black friends who all have enjoyed working in China. The ones that left did so because the take home money is not great here. So you are rich while you are here, but can only save $500 a month working an easy college life. I assume you are looking for a place with more money then China.
One uni that has about 15 foreign teachers actually has a kind of affirmative action plan, they always try to hire at least one black. Language schools can be different.
To over generalize, in the PRC you are either Chinese, a foreigner , or a Japanese (who they still love to hate)
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stgeorge



Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I have mixed first hand stories regarding Taiwan. I met a few black and mixed race teacers at adult language schools. But on the telephone I was constantly asked what my hair colour is, can I send a photo, are you a white people or a black people [not my mistake], are you sure you are 100 percent Caucasian [I kid you not]...
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Roger



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Racism is a fact of life that's deeply ingrained in people's minds. Education can help overcome it. Asians in general lack this level of insight. When Asia will one day be prosperous, it will lure more folks from other continents, the local populations will mix with overseas partners. To some extent, it is happening, and it happened when the British were in nominal control of parts of Asia though there were exclusivist mindsets on both sides - the British and their subject peoples.

Meanwhile, we as outsiders run the daily gauntlet of stares, being touched, being spoken to but not with, being called all manner of zoological terms. I am not exaggerating! I am white and sometimes I enjoy what some might call "reverse racism": The bus conductor not knowing how to approach me finally gives asking me "mai piao", the policeman that just has fined a jaywalker stares wide-eyed when he sees me crossing the road under a red traffic light (the fining of jaywalkers is a new phenomenon!), the staff in a business centre of a five-star hotel politely ignore me although they are under strict instruction to kick out any stray visitor.
Those special treatments are a kind of compensation for the often rude behaviour I face elsewhere.
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stgeorge



Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What country are you referring to Roger and why do you call it "reverse racism"? Are only white people capable of being "racist" in your eyes?

My experience is that the only country where you get those sort of racist freaks is South Korea. Korea is full of racist idiots who think a waygook is a thing to be played with. Such attitudes are almost non-existent in more civilised Japan, Taiwan and Thailand.
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