Job Discussion Forums

toddsqui · Joined: 30 Nov 2013 Posts: 5 Location: United States

I recently wrote a negative review of a TEFL program that I took, and it was taken down on the grounds that the owners of said program could sue the owners of the review site for defaming the school based on untrue claims. This, despite the fact that I had followed all of the guidelines for posting. My review had some positive remarks, but most of it was negative because my experience was, on the whole, pretty negative; in other words, I thought the review was fair.

I've noticed that increasingly less and less review sites are willing to accept negative reviews. For example, a couple of months ago I had tried to post a negative review of a teacher on ratemyprofessor.com, but this review was also taken down as well.

Am I going crazy, or do the webmasters of review sites have a valid point in protecting themselves?

I guess I was led to believe that review sites were supposed to be sites where one could post both positive and negative reviews, but apparently this is not the case. I mean, why have a review site at all if you aren't even willing to let the people speak for themselves?

Can someone please enlighten me here, because I am genuinely confused about all of this.

Thanks,

Todd

nomad soul · Joined: 31 Jan 2010 Posts: 11454 Location: The real world

If your claims against the company were true, there's nothing to worry about. Besides, I doubt any TEFL course provider would go through the headache of taking disgruntled/dissatisfied former customers to court; they can't afford the bad publicity if any of the claims turn out to be valid and verifiable. In other words, it wouldn't be a smart business strategy on their part.

rtm · Joined: 13 Apr 2007 Posts: 1003 Location: US

Since this is something you are encountering in multiple places, I wonder if it could be how your negative reviews are worded. If they use subjective descriptions (e.g., "the course was awful!", "the teacher didn't care about students!") rather than objective descriptions (e.g., "the course provider said we would have 6 hours a day of class time, but on average, 5 of these hours were spent discussing issues unrelated to teaching", "I asked the teacher for feedback 6 times, but never once received any feedback"), then that might be one reason the reviews are being removed. If you keep your reviews strictly factual, then, I would guess, they might be more likely to stay up.

Xie Lin · Joined: 21 Oct 2011 Posts: 731

Toddsqui, can you tell us in which country the course you took was located? There is one provider in particular who has become notorious for threatening review sites which post negative reviews about his course. I'm curious whether you may have taken this course. Or it may be these repeated threats of legal action have made the review sites wary .

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suphanburi · Joined: 20 Mar 2014 Posts: 916

Depending on a lot of factors (in many countries)....
"Truth" is NOT always a defense against defamation, libel or damage to business. Your "first Amendment Rights to free speech don't carry beyond the border of the US" and it is a big world out there.

Many countries will block sites if they are deemed to have violated that countries laws (regardless of where the server/site are based). Many sites won't allow inflammatory comments (true or not) for that reason alone.

For those reasons, many sites won't allow you to name and shame beyond a simple, "don't work there, I had a bad experience, PM for details" type message.

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toddsqui · Joined: 30 Nov 2013 Posts: 5 Location: United States

These are all great comments!

I will address most of them in no particular order:

Xie Lin - The program was based in Mexico.

Rtm - I never made any blatant assertions like that. I simply wrote both the good points and the bad, but mostly emphasized the bad because I felt that my life was endangered from being in a foreign country and getting no assistance from the program. I said that there were some "serious flaws worth considering." I felt obligated to help other students avoid this mess.

suphanburi- I understand, but I also felt that I needed to help other people avoid making the same mistake that I made by putting my trust in this particular program. They lied about their job placement, and to do that in Mexico is quite dangerous for people. I was very close to being impoverished when no job materialized in three months. I would have been on the streets had I not been able to secure employment from another country, all on my own.

Sure, you could make the case that people who get into this mess maybe deserve to get into it because they didn't do their due diligence, but the program does not have any negative reviews (they are all positive). People have mentioned this program in the forums on Dave's ESL cafe, but there aren't any negative reviews of it. Naturally, I thought this program was a winner.

So I guess my follow up question is this: can you not make the case for fraud in another country? Because that is essentially what happened. They made several claims on their website that just weren't true; they were false. And they are also apparently using social media very skillfully to mask the truth about their services.

Is this a case of fraud or just "fair game" in the capitalistic market?

What do you think?

nomad soul · Joined: 31 Jan 2010 Posts: 11454 Location: The real world

suphanburi · Joined: 20 Mar 2014 Posts: 916

rtm · Joined: 13 Apr 2007 Posts: 1003 Location: US

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

They might just send round the boys to get you.

toddsqui · Joined: 30 Nov 2013 Posts: 5 Location: United States

I kind of anticipated there would be some unsympathetic voices in this thread. The "Suck it up and die on the streets," type of members.

Yes, it's a big world, but the world is getting smaller and more globalized and interconnected (sorry for the cliche, but it's true). We have things like the Hague Convention, The International Court of Justice, and other developing institutions that will bring people to justice for behaviors that nearly everyone across the globe can agree are criminal. Sure, currently it's only major offenses that are considered, but I do wonder--with the advent of internet, Skype, and all of the rest-- how long it will be before some consensus building takes place over stuff that I've already mentioned. One can only speculate...

The point is this: I was lied to and tried to protect other people by writing a negative review on a TEFL review website. That review was taken down on the grounds that the advertisers of the program, who are from Mexico, could sue the website owners who have a global reach. That's the issue. I brought in the issue of fraud because if I get sued for libel, I can counter sue on charges of fraud. But the issue remains the same: can I post a negative review?

I'm guessing the final answer to all of this is:
It depends, and shut up.

Fair enough. Cyber space is big. I'll take my wares elsewhere.

Thanks for the replies.

rtm · Joined: 13 Apr 2007 Posts: 1003 Location: US

toddsqui · Joined: 30 Nov 2013 Posts: 5 Location: United States

Here's how the situation went down:

(1) I posted my negative review
(2) I was contacted by the website owners that they wanted proof that I had taken the TEFL course because the owners of the TEFL program were challenging my review.
(3)I sent the website owners my certificates (scanned copies) as proof that I had taken the course
(4)My review was taken down
(5)I emailed the website owners asking them why
(6) they replied and said that they didn't want to get into any trouble, specifically libel. They used this word, not me!

They said that my review was bordering on a violation of their guidelines because I used the word "lied," as in "they lied about their services."

The website owners also said that they didn't want to get into any trouble, I guess fearing that THEY might be sued on charges of libel. I don't know where the website owners are based, but if what you, RTM, say is true, then they could very well be charged.

I guess my original question is just really broad, perhaps too broad for us to have a sensible conversation about it: can a company sue a person or entity on libel charges for a negative review posted on a review website, irrespective of location? If the website owners are in Orlando, Florida, for example, can the TEFL program owners in Mexico sue the people in Florida? or China? or Romania? etc. etc. on charges of libel?? I'm guessing most of the people who have posted here think the answer is no.

Although I am definitely not interested in having this conversation degenerate into legal-speak, I raised the issue originally because I wanted to find out just how serious (for lack of a better word) a negative review really is. Should review websites no longer be viewed as places where people can openly voice their opinions and experiences?

I tried to do my due diligence when researching TEFL programs, as any reasonable person would, and calculated my decision based on faulty information-- because apparently negative reviews are not allowed on this one particularly popular review website. I looked to other review websites, of course, but there was nothing, no negative reviews. After speaking to alums, hand-picked from the staff of the TEFL program, I thought the coast was clear. Research done. Decision made.

Contrary to some member's impressions, I'm not crying over spilled milk. I DID land a job, after all. What I am trying to figure out is whether I am allowed to protect other people from making the same bad decision that I made, by posting a negative review on a review website--assuming the claims I make in the negative review are fair and truthful and totally legit. I don't want to sue anyone, but I would like to protect would-be teachers who might fall victim to this seemingly calculated deception, via a review of my experience and the rough justice that these review websites once represented, once upon a time. Call it a moral obligation, righteous indignation, whatever you want. I just want to know if we have reached the point in internet history where negative reviews lead to extremely serious consequences, i.e. libel cases, a visit from "the boys," etc. etc.

I'm no longer in the United States, and I guess, for all intents and purposes, I should just let the issue die and allow other people to fall through the cracks the way I did. But I do see a serious issue here. Yes, it's important to respect cultures and laws and diversity and all of that... there's no debate there. But in a global marketplace, where interactivity is inevitable, whose going to set the rules for this sort of stuff? Whose going to watch over the watchmen?

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

Nothing is going to happen to you.

spiral78 · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash

As a (very) long time Dave's poster, I'm going to note that 'job placement' "promises" have always been described here as iffy. The only TEFL course providers who can actually back this up are the few who also run language schools. There used to be one in Prague that was this way (now closed) and IH is another fairly reputable one. A TEFL course that can hire its own trainees has some grounds to base such a promise on. Otherwise, it's well-known that 'job placement' really doesn't exist in the industry, and newbies who ask here in advance of taking a course are always informed of this - granted, by 'us,' who may or may not appear credible to the newbie, but better than nothing!!!