Job Discussion Forums

[Gordon]

Thanks a lot John. I think they will do the trick.

Hope you and your car are feeling better.

[Gregor]

I thought I'd share this little discovery. I used this on my diploma course. It may not be good for a presentation, but it is quite useful and a LOT easier than PhonMap or the Alt.+ten-key method:
http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-ascii.htm
This is a link to a phonetic script using standard ASCII computer (or typewriter) print. Nothing here that isn't right in front of you at the keyboard.
And anyone who says it isn't standard, two things to remember - one, I have seen any number of abreviated IPAs out there (just do a Google search and you'll find quite a few), and number two, how many laymen know and use the IPA ANYWAY??
Gregor

[teacheringreece]

Sorry to drag up the argument in the old posts, but this is the first time I read through this thread.

To put the argument to rest, and to put Mr Bertrand in his place (as he obviously takes great pride in his limited knowledge), there is both a phonetic and phonemic script.

PHONETIC script is mostly used in linguistics, and, as Bertrand says, can be used to transcribe any language. It aims at being able to transcribe every sound used in all languages (for examples, it has symbols for the click sounds used in some African languages). It is, however, of very limited use in language teaching because it is very complex and students would need a good knowledge of phonetics to be able to understand it.

PHONEMIC script, however, is far more common. It is used in language teaching and found in most dictionaries. The difference between this and phonetic script is that in phonemic script the characters represent phonemes (i.e. all the different vowel and consonant sounds of a language). However, one phoneme can cover a number of different sounds. To use Bertrand's example, there are two ways of pronouncing /l/ in British English, but these are just transcribed as one phoneme. (Native speakers can't notice the difference between them, unless they know what to listen for.) In phonetic script, the two different sounds can be transcribed with different symbols.

British English is generally considered to have 46 phonemes, so there are 46 symbols used to transcribe the language. Other varieties of English, though, do not necessarily have the same phonemes; I'm not sure, but I would imagine Canadian English has fewer vowel sounds than British English. Therefore, the script used in dictionaries and teaching would be slightly different. Phonetic script has thousands of symbols, so this one script could be used to transcribe both.

For a truly accurate PHONETIC transcription of British English, you would need to use far more than 46 symbols, hence it would be unnecessarily difficult for students.

[lumber Jack]

While I agree with the above as far as it goes, is it not the case that what you refer too as "phonemic" script is actually referred to, most of the time, as "phonetic" script?

Which isn't a very helpful situation.

[teacheringreece]

Yes, many people do refer to phonemic script as phonetic script, but of course incorrectly. This is almost definitely due to the fact that the symbols for a phonemic script are usually taken from phonetic script (although not always - some dictionaries have their own systems, especially non-EFL ones). From a teaching point of view phonemic script is the only feasible choice.

[hanuman]

[guilao]

Who was the §öth«d said we don't need to worry about this in EFL work? Perhaps not on an everyday basis, but it does make it easier to explain to other linguists how to pronounce words.

My only beef with this free app is that the standard set exludes some critical phonemes used in English. Other than that, it seems to live up to it's promise. Thanks to Jan Mulder for sharing.

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

In addition to Gregor's excellent link above,

here's an updated link to Jan Mulder's

Phonemic Script Writer, for anyone

who's into this kind of thing:




http://phonmap.com/

[Gregor]

Guilao,
The only thing I have to say to your last post is that if you know what you're doing and can educate your students in its use, phonemic/phonetic script (I think we all know which one we mean) is useful, every day. Almost every day, anyway, depending on how many classes you teach.
At least in China, it's REALLY useful. Because English spelling is ALL OVER the place, as is its pronunciation. AND, Chinese students tend to have at least a passing familiarity with the phonetic chart. It really helps them, in my experience, to pronounce the words correctly. And that is a BIG DEAL here. Their pronunciation (I mean, in their native language) is so different from English pronunciation that I will take anything I can get to help them approximate standard English (either ASE or RP) pronunciation.
And with the most common "phonetic" chart, you can focus on American, Canadian, Australian or British pronunciation. Or allow for variations, depending on what you wish to bring across (I teach both ASE and RP as equal, but don't bother with other standard pronunciations, just out of having to draw the line SOMEWHERE).
AND! You can do that with the ASCII chart I posted almost a year ago. You just have to educate the students (and the teachers) in its use. Since I am the DOS at my school, I was able to make the ASCII chart part of our school's culture.

Kent,
I will give your link a go tomorrow morning when I get to the office. Thanks for sharing.

[guilao]

Gregor,

I know of at least one other teacher who uses IPA in a community college ESL program. He swears by it, as he is a non-native English teacher who is not confident in his own knowledge of English.

Reflecting my own experience as a learner of Chinese in a university, I realize that phonetic systems are a potential obstacle to learning. The rules of tone sandhi are not inherent in the romanized Pinyin phonetic system. Nor is the Beijing "r" or the "san/shan" difference you hear in Taiwan. After cleaning out my ears and forgetting my native roman character set, my Mandarin conversational skills accelerated rapidly.

Another example is the romanized system for learning Cantonese. It does not portray real speech phenomena, such as initial-N sounding like initial-L amongst younger people in Hong Kong.

In the last few months, I have been performing self-study of Tagalog, which also has been romanized. Discovering curricular materials from an audiolingual method course in the 1960's, I have learned that what you see in print is not always the same as what you hear.

Assimilation is a fact of real speech, which even the most sophisticated phonetic coding systems cannot document. That's why I strongly believe the most important phonetic learning aids we have are our ears.

If we are to use phonetic aids such as ITA and IPA, I think we need to emphasis the situations where phonemes assimilate either partially or completely to surrounding consonants. We also need to consider differences in English dialects, and the mythological notion of a "standard" way to speak English (RP is well-known, but there is no such thing as ASE!). And don't forget supersegmentals...

I guess I'm of the opinion that the "linguisticese" is best reserved for advanced analysis of the language. With this in mind, I concede that IPA has a place in some classrooms, but only if you are aware of it's potential for distraction.

[Gregor]

guilao wrote:

[M109A3]

I think Little Horsey got upset. Ah well. All I could think of was Bob & Doug McKenzie and "The Great White North" eh. Good dey eh! BTW, is "Howdy" down here............... It was tough not keeping a straight face while reading. Sorry LH...............

Being Bilingual I fully understand the concerns too. Mexican (more Inca than Spanish), Cuban, Colombian and so on Spanish differ in many ways from Spain's Spanish (My ex from Cali can tell y'all about THAT). I'm always gaining new Spanish and Indian words here every day.

However, if the software is what it's supposed to be, then the whole of the English language should be covered. My suggestion is (if no one else has thought of it) is to aquire a Thesaurus for the more obtuse vocabulary used in various knooks and crannies of the English speaking world (like Texas for example.............) and refer to it and hopefully a more universal term can be derived. Just a thought.

[guilao]

Gregor, spouting out the side of his neck, says:

"No such thing as American Standard English??? Where are you from? Yes, there is. I speak it. I was taught it. "

That's right, little man. There is no such thing as American Standard English. People speak it differently throughout the good ol' USA.

Gregor, spouting out the side of his neck, said furthermore:

"The fact that it exists and is still considered standard in educational systems in the US is the source of a good deal of debate"

Actually, language diversity in the U.S. is accepted by many linguists, TESOL members and other professional ESL/EFL educators, and many immigrants and non-immigrants who just happen to live here and not in Vietnam.

Gregor, spouting out the side of his neck, tries to clarify by pushing a racist view of urban speech:

"mostly regarding the acceptance (or not) of ICE (Inner-city English, a.k.a. Ebonics or Black speech, which is spoken by a large enough number of white inner-city kids as well). Because ICE follws set rules as well...it's just not standard American English."

The fact that some of the lexicon of African-American Vernacular English has been imitated by white kids without belts proves nothing. The grammar has been handed down to black Americans since slave-trading times and is as old, if not older, than our country itself. As to inner-city dialects, if you are in a Mexican, Chinese, pinoy, Russian, Italian, Japanese or other linguistic group's neighborhood, the style of English will vary. Ie., your notion of ICE is even more preposterous than the myth of ASE!

Gregor, spouting out the side of his neck, swears he knows what he's talking about:

"I swear, I'm not making this up."

Gregor, spouting out the side of his neck, takes a stab at poor white folk:

"If you listen to news anchorpeople in, say, the deep south (Alabama, Georgia, etc.) you will hear NOT local "Gomer Pyle" accents. You'll hear ASE. Those folks sound the same in all parts of the country. Because it IS standard and is meant to be understood by every native English-speaking American."

No, what you hear is a midwestern-like accent that many broadcasters and voiceover talent emulate, but not all. The most distinctive broadcasters retain their own vocal style, retaining their regional accents, because genuineness makes for loyal listeners these days.

Gomer Pyle? Is that all the American TV you get out there in 'nam?

[Theriel]

Well, being a phonetician, I seem to be in a an interesting situation to address this I would generally argue that using the IPA can be useful, but in a limited way. Most people are not learning English in order to be advanced linguists, they want it to communicate. Using a great deal of phonetics isn't going to usually make you any friends among your students, especially because people find pronounciation exercises difficult and frustrating, and teachers often do not know how to teach it.

However, that being said, I myself do use IPA on a fairly regularly basis, because I find that here in Finland, as Finns are used to a rather phonemic alphabet, they much prefer an accurate way to pronounce things rather than the messy English spelling system. If I write

through
though
thought

for instance, it's easy to understand why that's difficult. But if i write

/θɹu/
/ðou/
/θɔtʰ/
it's far easier to understand for them (if not for all of us ). (Note that I used a mostly phonemic version rather than a phonetic.. the ony time I'll use a phonetic transcription is if it's important to distinguish between a Finnish and an English pronounciation, such as aspiration on plosives).

Now, I think Finland is a bit of an exception to the rule than the norm, so use your own judgment. I generally don't have to teach the IPA to them because they're already used to looking up pronounciations in dictionaries, and it's standard practice to use IPA. Thus, it saves me a lot of effort, and can make it worth it to use IPA in class.

As for tools regarding phonetics, I suggest Tavultesoft keyman for phonetic input, which uses a convenient method to input any phonetic character, rather than hunting for it on a map. You can also use this for other foreign language inputs, and it's freeware for up to two keyboard layouts. It does require unicode, however.

You can get the program at http://www.tavultesoft.com/keyman/

and the keyboard map at: http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&item_id=SILKeyboards

and a good phonetic font at: http://www.sil.org/computing/catalog/show_software.asp?id=91

Feel free to ask any other questions

[sheeba]

Can anyone suggest why my phonomap isn't working properly . For example I click on the 'i' see and I get j. I click on the 'I' in sit and it gives me ɫ . It's gone bonkers . I don't think I have a virus(hope not ) and I've tried to download it again but I still get these incorrect phonemes .

Please help !! I'm using it for my on-line studies and I need it !!!