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Sexism in Morroco???
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Hod



Joined: 28 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:23 pm    Post subject: Re: erm Reply with quote

bje wrote:
This is a stereotype. I've come across plenty of Muslims in the five Islamic countries in which I have taught (including Morocco) who thought their religion (or aspects of it) was a load of tosh while publicly going through certain motions. Once they knew you they were quite ready to criticise it and some considered the stances of atheism and agnosticism to be appealing.


Excuse the puns, but you’re preaching to the converted here.

Think about countries where the populations are mainly Buddhist, Catholic or Jewish and the religious freedoms they have. If they don’t believe or have no desire to practice, fair enough. Whereas a Muslim not fasting during Ramadan, for example, has big problems.

A poignant memory during one Ramadan was a Moroccan colleague sat opposite me, stuffing sandwiches in his mouth. When he heard someone coming into the office, he had to wolf down his food and hide the rest away. This colleague was a fantastic and genuine guy but openly denounced Islam and had no opportunity to de-convert from a religion he was born into.

I see little difference between my former colleague’s plight and that of someone living in Nazi Germany or the present North Korea. Those poor people, who I have massive sympathy with, were born into a society they had or have little or no say in and were (or are) persecuted if they spoke out. If any of us were born in Berlin in 1920 or Pyongyang in 1980, we too would have been sheep.

If you’re thinking of living and working in any Muslim country, you too will have to put up with such confusion.
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bje



Joined: 19 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:34 pm    Post subject: Re: erm Reply with quote

Hod wrote:
bje wrote:
This is a stereotype. I've come across plenty of Muslims in the five Islamic countries in which I have taught (including Morocco) who thought their religion (or aspects of it) was a load of tosh while publicly going through certain motions. Once they knew you they were quite ready to criticise it and some considered the stances of atheism and agnosticism to be appealing.


Excuse the puns, but you’re preaching to the converted here.


Not a matter of 'preaching' anything; merely stating my personal experience in five Islamic countries.
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Hod



Joined: 28 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You lived in five Islamic countries, as you already said. Would you prefer a silver or gold medal?

The main thing, from reading your posts, is that you enjoyed it.
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bje



Joined: 19 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hod wrote:
You lived in five Islamic countries, as you already said. Would you prefer a silver or gold medal?

The main thing, from reading your posts, is that you enjoyed it.


Nope, no medal required; you seem somewhat antagonistic today. No, I can't say I especially enjoyed these particular countries in the scheme of things, particularly not Kuwait and Brunei.
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Hod



Joined: 28 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not antagonistic to ask why you live/lived in these countries?

To live in one Islamic country (and not like it) may be regarded as a misfortune; to live in two (or more) looks like carelessness.
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sharter



Joined: 25 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:45 pm    Post subject: tosh Reply with quote

'You won't meet nutters as a teacher'.

Like the teacher who got stabbed in the neck in Jubail or the expat bus full of teachers that got shot up.

Like the Libyans who bother you in the street about being a Christian.

Like the Qataris who harassed all the female staff.

In my experience the Sunna youth is getting more extreme and narrow minded.

I've been out here a long time. It isn't wise to talk about religion at work. It's best not to talk about it in private. No matter what they tell you to your face, it's a rare thing to find an Arab Muslim who truly doesn't believe in Allah. 99% of the westerners I know in the ME/NA would agree with what I've just written.
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Hod



Joined: 28 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:45 pm    Post subject: Re: tosh Reply with quote

sharter wrote:
99% of the westerners I know in the ME/NA would agree with what I've just written.


Pity that the other 1% post on here.

Muslims talk about religion to anybody, especially the likes of us. I would never ever dream of even thinking about starting a conversation about religion, but Muslims have asked for my opinion at least a thousand times. I don't really believe in god and appear non-committal when asked. What should I do in such situations, make out I’m a right old charlie church?
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sharter



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:47 pm    Post subject: erm......... Reply with quote

I usually just say 'my religion is between me and god'.

I'm agnostic by the way, so it ain't exactly true but they seem to respect the answer.
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007



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: erm Reply with quote

sharter wrote:
Given the world in which we live, it's safer not to admit that you're a 'kufr'-being a 'nasrani'/'messahi' ie Christian (even if you're not) is much safer for you.

Well, I think you do not understand the meaning of 'Kafeer' in Arabic.
'Kaffer' or 'Kufr' is not 'nasrani' or 'Massihi' as as you said. 'Nasrani' and 'Masishi' (i.e Christians) are described in the Quran as 'people of the book' - including the Jews as well. 'Kufir' or ;Kufaar' in Arabic means people who do not believe in God at all.

.
Quote:
Just thinking about the poster's safety bro-it's better to avoid the topic of religion altogether.

Just plain exaggeration! Morocco is full of Churches of all kinds, and full of tourists from all over the world (Christians and non-Christians), and is one of the best destination for tourism. You like it or not, Morocco is one of the safest countries in North Africa.

sharter wrote:
In my experience the Sunna youth is getting more extreme and narrow minded.

Well, I think you are the one who is getting more extreme and more narrow minded than the pastor of Florida!

Quote:
usually just say 'my religion is between me and god'.

Well, I do not think God associates Himself with an epsilon! Laughing
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basiltherat



Joined: 04 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, I think you do not understand the meaning of 'Kafeer' in Arabic.
'Kaffer' or 'Kufr' is not 'nasrani' or 'Massihi' as as you said. 'Nasrani' and 'Masishi' (i.e Christians) are described in the Quran as 'people of the book' - including the Jews as well. 'Kufir' or ;Kufaar' in Arabic means people who do not believe in God at all.



Shaykh Muhammad ibn Salih al-`Uthaymeen says:

……….. Allah has declared that Jews and Christians are disbelievers (kuffaar) in His Book. Allah has said, “And the Jews say, ‘Ezra is the son of Allah,’ and the Christians say, ‘The Messiah is the son of Allah.’ This is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allah’s curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth. They took their rabbis and their monks as lords besides Allah and [they also took as Lord] the Messiah, son of Mary. But they were commanded only to worship none but One God. Praise and Glory be to Him, [far above is He] from having the partners they associate with Him.” [at-Taubah 9:30-31] That shows that they are polytheists who associate partners with Allah. In other verses, Allah has made it clear that they are disbelievers.



mmmmm, so, there seems to be some disagreement here.

Best
Basil
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007



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

basiltherat wrote:
Quote:
Well, I think you do not understand the meaning of 'Kafeer' in Arabic.
'Kaffer' or 'Kufr' is not 'nasrani' or 'Massihi' as as you said. 'Nasrani' and 'Masishi' (i.e Christians) are described in the Quran as 'people of the book' - including the Jews as well. 'Kufir' or ;Kufaar' in Arabic means people who do not believe in God at all.



Shaykh Muhammad ibn Salih al-`Uthaymeen says:

……….. Allah has declared that Jews and Christians are disbelievers (kuffaar) in His Book. Allah has said, “And the Jews say, ‘Ezra is the son of Allah,’ and the Christians say, ‘The Messiah is the son of Allah.’ This is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allah’s curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth. They took their rabbis and their monks as lords besides Allah and [they also took as Lord] the Messiah, son of Mary. But they were commanded only to worship none but One God. Praise and Glory be to Him, [far above is He] from having the partners they associate with Him.” [at-Taubah 9:30-31] That shows that they are polytheists who associate partners with Allah. In other verses, Allah has made it clear that they are disbelievers.



mmmmm, so, there seems to be some disagreement here.

Best
Basil

Well, it seems you miss-understood the correct translation of the word 'kafur' or 'kuffar' as it is mentioned in the Quran.
I suggest you look at the paper of Dr. Badawi*,"Muslim and Non-Muslim Relations: Reflections on Some Qur'anic Texts." in which he explained the meaning of the word 'kuffar' :

"Here is a big mistake with translation, one that is sometimes committed by Muslims, too. If you look at the English dictionary meaning of infidel, you would find that it means someone who does not have a faith or does not believe in Allah. Does the Qur'an say that the Jews and Christians do not believe in Allah? No. In Surat Al-`Ankabut (29:46), Allah says that the God of Christians, Jews, and Muslims is one and the same. The word infidel is an inaccurate translation of the word kafir in this case.

The term kafir, referring to a person, or kufr, referring to an act, is used in the Qur'an in a variety of contextual meanings. This is why I hesitate to use even the terms non-believer or disbeliever for the translation, as is it is not clear from these English terms what is the object of unbelief or disbelief, it is God, a particular prophet, or others?


Following are examples of the varied contextual uses of the term kufr in the Qur'an as follows:

Kufr is sometimes used in a positive sense. A good believer can also be a kafir. How so? The Qur'an says [Faman yakfur bil taghut wayu'mim billah] (Whoever rejects (yakfur) taghut (oppression) and believes in Allah) (Al-Baqarah 2:56). Anyone who believes in one thing is a kafir (rejecter) of its opposite.
Kufr can be used in a neutral or benign sense, as the origin of kufr in the Arabic language means "to cover up." A farmer who puts a seed in the ground and covers it up is performing kufr. Spiritually, deliberate deviation from the true and authentic prophets is a form of "covering-up" the truth.
The word kufr can also be applied to Muslims who do something wrong, although not necessarily something that would place them outside the state of belief in Islam. For example, a Muslim who is able to go for Hajj but does not go, without denying the need to go, would be committing an act of kufr in a sense of their being ungrateful to Allah (3:96-97).
Kufr is used in the Qur'an as the opposite of shukr (to be grateful) (Luqman 31:12).

Kafir is used in the Qur'an, not only to refer to Jews or Christians, but also those who rejected the prophets and denied the existence of God. It has been used to refer to the people of Noah and the people of Abraham. It has also been used to refer to those who denied prophethood and rejected the existence of Allah altogether, which obviously is not the case with Christians and Jews.

Kafir can also be used in a more serious sense, but with a variety of meanings. It refers to the rejection of Islam. It describes one who knows the truth, but rejects it out of pride or vanity. It describes a person who knows the truth in his or her heart and deliberately rejects it.
Nonetheless, we cannot clearly assess this situation.

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) gave Muslims very clear instructions after one incident when people assumed to know why someone had professed belief in Islam. He asked them whether they had opened up his heart, and if they knew whether what was in his heart was sincere or not. The bottom line is that we have to leave judging people's faith to Allah; only Allah knows the sincerity of a particular person's acceptance. Allah is All-Knowing, and He is the only Judge of all of us."

* Dr Badawi is a professor of management and religious studies, Saint Mary’s University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada


Read more: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1209357934588&pagename=Zone-English-Living_Shariah%2FLSELayout
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basiltherat



Joined: 04 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, it seems you miss-understood the correct translation of the word 'kafur' or 'kuffar' as it is mentioned in the Quran.


Shouldn't that be 'he' i.e. 'the sheykh'.

I mean, I am in agreement with you.

Best
Basil
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basiltherat



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Allah says that the God of Christians, Jews, and Muslims is one and the same


Interesting. Dr Badawi must have been reading a completely New Testament from the one I've got. Jesus consistently taught love your enemy/foe among many other virtues, the heights of which very few of us seem capable of attaining in our personal lives. In general terms, this is somewhat different from many of the verses in the Quran as interpreted by some 'eminent' scholars such as sheiks.

For example (quote):

A Christian martyr is not a person who kills others for there beliefs. A person who kills a person for their beliefs is a coward. A true martyr is one who has a belief and when expressing it is persecuted by society many times even his own people with no protection he or she would go into the slaughter and is put into death. A Christian martyr does not chose to die, they are living life day by day, spreading the gospel to the society. And once, he or she is caught they are persecuted for their beliefs. He or she would have an option to live or die for what they believe most of the time, the don’t deny there faith.

Best
Basil
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sharter



Joined: 25 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:28 am    Post subject: erm Reply with quote

I think 007 didn't read my post correctly. Let me simplify the English. It is wiser to say you are a Christian than an atheist. How about that? Easy enough for you?

I know what the difference is between kufr and nasrani.

As for my lack of tolerance. Sura 5 in my English version, produced by Cairo University and obtained from the Saudi Embassy;'Take not Jews and Christians for friends.......'

Nuff said.

I'm not narrow minded at all. I'm well-travelled. I'm just one of those who firmly believes that Muslims in Europe take the piss. In Saudi, Qatar and my current location there are no churches, bibles etc and my boss regularly refers to me as the nasrani and uses it in the derogatory sense. I'm here for the cash, which unlike my non-native speaker colleagues, I work very hard for.

Oh......many of my students don't distinguish between nasrani and kufr in Arabic.....like they tell me that Christians can't enter paradise and a load of other bollocks.
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007



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: erm Reply with quote

sharter wrote:
I think 007 didn't read my post correctly. Let me simplify the English. It is wiser to say you are a Christian than an atheist. How about that? Easy enough for you? m

Well, I am a believer of Jesus, the messenger of God.

Quote:
As for my lack of tolerance. Sura 5 in my English version, produced by Cairo University and obtained from the Saudi Embassy;'Take not Jews and Christians for friends.......'


Well, if you had studied the classic Arabic language, you would have come to a better understanding of the above verse. What about this:

"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant." (Qur'an 5:82)

"And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God. They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account." (Qur'an 3:199)

"In arabic, the common word for friend is "siddiq". The Quran did not use that word in this verse. The word used is "wali" (see above for an example) which means protecting friend or guardian. The Quran is telling Muslims in this verse that they should not look to Jews and Christians to protect their interest in Islam. Why? Because Jews and Christians do not know or are sensitive to the special interest of Muslims that are unique to Islam. Would a Christian go to a Buddhist and say "Mr. Bhuddist here is my Bible I want you to be it's guardian and protect the special interest that the Bible has for Christians." No! That can only be done by a fellow Christian who shares that interest. There are too many verses in Quran exhorting the friendship between righteous Christians, Jews and people of other faiths with Muslims" - See above verses for some examples.
http://www.islamicinvitationcentre.com/Anti_Islam_FAQ/Christians_Jews_Friends_or_guardians.htm


Quote:
...like they tell me that Christians can't enter paradise and a load of other bollocks.

Well, the decision to enter or not enter the paradise is God's business not your students's business!
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