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Muslimitis
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guest of Japan



Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I once swatted a chicken, well punched actually, but it started the fight.

I've yet to eat a cockroach, but I've successfully stomped a mosquito. Did I read that last message right?
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 1:36 pm    Post subject: Regarding the Kingdom Reply with quote

Dear Mark100 and ohman,

"Anybody who believes that things haven't changed much in Saudi obviously doesn't live here at the moment."

I suppose it's possible that conditions all over the Kingdom HAVE changed "much" since last July when I left. I guess it's possible that the people in Riyadh that I'm in e-mail contact with almost every day are either fibbing to me or are just amazingly unobservant/in complete denial.
But a lot of what Mark100 wrote about was true when I was still there, and yet my daily life didn't change "much" at all.
I am, however, entirely prepared to believe that life for others HAS changed quite a bit. But I think there may be error in assuming that because your life has changed a lot, this must also be true for every other ex-pat in the Kingdom. It may depend to a great degree on where you're working and what your life was like before. I know that, not living on a compound and not having or wanting much of a social life, I wasn't very affected by what could greatly affect others in different circumstances.
Don't get me wrong - I believe everything you've posted here about how tough things have become. My only disagreement is your insistence that what's true for you HAS TO BE true for everyone else there. So if someone, such as Leila2003 writes in and says it's not true for her, you assume that she's "in denial". Guys, why isn't her experience as valid as yours? Your Saudi Arabia just may not be the only one possible, you know.

Oh, and ohman - one more point:

"Remember that the curriculum for the Pakistani and Afghani madrassas was not developed by local steering committees."

Well, actually it was. Ever hear of the Deobandis?

http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=8869

The thing that's amazing to me is that you never see them mentioned in the "Western press". Sure, the Deobandis are, in my opinion, at least as wacky as the Wahhabis, but they ARE "home-grown" local steering committees - and, as with all fundamentalist groups, the minor differences between them make for big problems - the two sects will "cooperate" on occasion, but there's an underlying deep emnity; heretics are, after all, even worse than "infidels".

Regards,
John
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khmerhit



Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 1874
Location: Reverse Culture Shock Unit

PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of "infidels"---

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040315/COARK15/TPComment/TopStories

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040313/KHADR13/TPNational/Canada
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Stephen Jones



Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124

PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apart from more frequent police checks on the road to town I have not noticed any change whatsoever in Jubail.

I think Mark 100 is confusing anti-US government feeling with anti-westerner feeling. There is no more of the second than before, and it is certainly rare in Eastern province, and almost certainly a minority feeling outside of a very limited geographical area. On the other hand anti-US government feeling is practically universal but so what. Most Brtis, including myself, are violently anti-US government - heck most Yanks I know are.

Equally much of what appears to be pro-Bin Laden feeling is simply anti-Bush and anti-Sharon feeling. Bin Laden represents Rambo, and even the Shiites will cheer him - but this is because they know full well he hasn't a snowball's chance of ever achieving any real power. A lot of Saudis outwardly supported Saddam, but when he was captured the only comments we got were a muted "congratulations" (funny how we are credited with the successes but not the failures).
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ohman



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 239
Location: B' Um Fouk, Egypt

PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, be that as it may re: the curriculum, can you imagine Saudi benefactors parting with endowments without first reviewing the curriculum and approving it?

Of course the pragmatic Saudis schooled in concepts of real politik and international trade are still hoping for the best. But it is that conservative element again who are giving no ground. They seem to have developed a seige mentality and they've circled the wagons.
Hence, the 60 mm German MGs and 22mm guns posted around my compound's barricades of concrete and concertina wire.

Teaching in a medical faculty or for Public Admin., at a university or banking institute are probably not bad gigs. Teaching at an industrial tech center or for the military brings you face-to-face with the squeaky wheels.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:54 pm    Post subject: Take the money and run Reply with quote

Dear ohman,
Regarding the "curriculum", what I can easily imagine is that the "curriculum" the Saudi sponsors may have inspected might not be exactly what's being "taught" in those madrasses. Why not, when that's happening right here in the States? I've talked with the guy mentioned in this article, Hakim Archuletta, and even had some of the mosque attendees in my classes on Islam:

http://www.polkonline.com/stories/091099/rel_trend.shtml

What Hakim told me (and, having had some rather long discussions with those aforementioned mosque attendees, I believe him) is that while they DO get funding from Saudi Arabia and they DO give the "sponsors" the impression that they abide by a "Wahhabi" intrepertation, in actuality they preach and teach what the article said, an Islam that's:

"' . . . very universal, very tolerant ... not this other thing that you're seeing out there in the news -- politically oriented, fundamentalist, mean Islam . . .''

I asked Hakim if taking the money under what many would say were "false pretenses" bothered him. He smiled and replied to the effect that it didn't matter, as long as the money was being used in a way pleasing to Allah. A very practical guy, Hakim.

And I can see, as I mentioned, how your situation and that of Mark100 could very well have become relatively worse. What I was mainly objecting to was the seeming insistance that ALL the ex-pats in the Kingdom MUST be experiencing the same. Leila and Stephen, currently there, appear to prove my point.
Regards,
John
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The military compounds here when I visited them in the late 90's always seemed more than a touch surreal. Like the Canal Zone circa 1961 transplanted to the Middle East.

The mindsets of the occupants were always a bit different too. Most were mentally still in Fort Swampy and neither wished to know anything about the world beyond that nor had much contact with locals at any level.
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Leila2003



Joined: 22 Apr 2003
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think there may be error in assuming that because your life has changed a lot, this must also be true for every other ex-pat in the Kingdom.


Thank you for so aptly explaining what I was trying to say. I really have to say that for me life has not changed at all. I have an active social life, attend functions, go out as usual and have not experienced any major difference to upset my life.

Yes, there are a few more security checkpoints than usual, but are they really checkpoints? I am a female, and when the policemen see me in the back of a taxi, they simply wave me through! Question So even if I were planning some criminal activity, they wouldn't know.

I have spoken to quite a few of the other ex-pats living here and they have not been affected either. In fact they still regularly go to Faisaliya and Kingdom, eat at Four seasons and Harvey Nichols and have not experienced anything out of the ordinary.

This is not denial.....perhaps as another poster mentioned, we shouldn't confuse anti-U.S government sentiment with anti-westerner ones.

As a female, my life tends to be much more restricted than men, yet I have not seen the major changes mentioned above. Sorry to disappoint you.

P.S. About the hunting....It was something I wanted to see firsthand...part of Arab culture (sitting on a horse and having a falcon perch on your arm and watching it fly off and get its prey)...I believe you should try everything at least once in life no??

However, it was just used as an example that I am still able to do things I did before the attacks.
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Albulbul



Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 364

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:09 am    Post subject: Those Awful Germans Reply with quote

I get the feeling that ohman has experienced a special horror becasue the Saudis have GERMAN machine guns. Horror ! They have probably signed up for membership of the Axis Pact ! At the very least they are collaborating with the Reich.

Would it better if they were US machine guns ?
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Mark100



Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 441

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe i am not getting my point across clearly so i will try one more time.
Firstly it is true that my day to day routine has not changed much except for the fact that i have to show my id everywhere and i get stopped at roadblocks regularly. This is an annoyance that has a cumulative effect after time and adds to the already difficult living environment. The presence of armoured vehicles and mounted machine guns doesn't make me feel more secure rather it reminds me daily that indeed there is a threat of attack. This also has a cumulative effect on the physche. I do not by the way live on a military compound.
There is indeed a very strong anti Bush anti US sentiment in Saudi and the numbers of westerners that are leaving is increasing as a result of the reduced quality of life. Again this is a reality for most people. I was here pre Sept 11 for a number of years and indeed the mood has changed significantly.
The fact that Saudi is at a sort of crossroads is also a reality.
The fact is also that there have been many incidents.
Again i will say that those who don't recognise this are in denial.
As an analogy the crime rate may increase dramatically in your city with more rapes muggings etc but because you are not one of the victims it is easy to say life is still the same and you haven't noticed any changes. However the reality is that you are more likely to be a victim of crime and that the law and order situation is deteriorating. If you are unaware of the situation i suppose you will carry on in blissful ignorance however unfortunatley i see the reality.
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Cleopatra



Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been reading this thread with interest, as, having been out of KSA for nearly a year, I like to keep in touch with goings-on there.

Although my Saudi experience is limited to the past few years, almost everyone I speak to says that, basically, in the 80s, ex-pat life was a whirl, but it went downhill considerably following the Gulf War. However, most people say it was still quite OK until the late 90s, but that quality of life has deteriorated a lot since then.

What these people are referring to is, invariably, the number of "Westerners" resident in the Kingdom, and the opportunities to attend compound parties and the like. While I'm not much of a party girl myself, it does remain true that, since, realistically, it is unlikely that I'm going to become close to many locals in the social sense, like all expats I do, for good or for ill, depend on other expats for a social life. Obviously, the fewer "Weterners" there are, the fewer your opportuniteis for a varied social life. I can happily spend time alone, but I do need some sort of a social outlet, and I must say that my circumstances did not really allow for this when I was in KSA. I accept, however, that, in other circumstances, one can indeed have a decent social life if you're prepared to work hard enough for it.

As for "anti-Western" sentiment, well, I heard lots of talk about it, but can honestly say that I never once was at the receiving end of it. Sexual harassment, yes, racism, no. It used to annoy me when people looked at me patronizingly and said "Oh, but do you ever go out?". When I told them that I was one of the few expat women I knew who regularly goes out walking on her own and that I still hadn't encountered the abusedthey spoke of, I don't think they believed me. It's not that I'm saying that this sort of stuff doesn't go on - you can find racist idiots everywhere, including in my own country - but personally it wasn't an issue for me. I never felt unsafe either. Certainly, most Saudis I met were very opposed to Western policy in the ME, but seeing as I am too, I didn't have a problem with that.

It seems clear that expat life in KSA HAS changed,not neccessariy for the better. Anybody think there could ever be a reverse?
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Steiner



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 573
Location: Hunan China

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember from high school biology that the suffix "-itis" means "inflammation of." Thus, tonsilitis is inflammation of the tonsils, appendicitis is inflammation of the appendix, and muslimitis is inflammation of the muslim.

Your thread title is false advertising and I was disappointed.
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ohman



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 239
Location: B' Um Fouk, Egypt

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steiner,
have a lot of time on your hands, do you?
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ohman



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 239
Location: B' Um Fouk, Egypt

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:10 pm    Post subject: Human Being Lawn Mowers Reply with quote

Abul--nope. I grew up on TV shows like Combat and The Gallent Men--I know my German machine guns.

I also didn't recognize them as M-60s (I'm also prior service) So I asked my students.

The M-60, by the way, is essentially a copy of the German MG series from WWII--the finest squad level belt fed machine gun of the Good War.
The US M-60 overfeeds rounds and jams a lot. The German gun doesn't. It's a quality murder machine.

Whether or not those pin heads sleeping behind those gun are quality soldiers, I have my doubts.


Last edited by ohman on Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dmb



Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ steiner. What were you hoping for? Pictures of Muslims being inflamed Confused
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