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Muslimitis
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Cleopatra



Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ohman,

I totally agre with you about the appalling treatment meted out to Their World labourers in the Kingdom. And I don't thinbk you can even in truth say they "made a choice" as many of them are conned into thinking they'll be working in much better conditions. when they arrive and discover the sad reality, there is nothing that can be done about it.

Howevr,remmeber that, unfortunately, abuse of foreign workers is by no means unique to KSA. Apart from the fact that exactly the same thing goes on in the other Gulf countries, illegal workers are treated terribly all over the world. In Britain last month, there was a scandal when several Chinese workers were drowned picking cockles for about £1 a day. I'm sure similar stories can be found all over the "Western" world.

About the Shia's, you are also right. However, again, what do you propose doing? If KSa is not a member of the international organizations you mention, then obviously they can't be expected to play by their rules. And you know as well as I do that in the current climate, any reforms seen as being externally imposed on the Kingdomare doomed to failure.
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Bindair Dundat



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 1123

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:22 am    Post subject: Re: A whale of a mistake - or would that be a camel? Reply with quote

johnslat wrote:
However, in my defense, let me point out that I was only taking the words (and the spelling - so blame ohman) from the original post.


Oh, Mr. Slat, rest assured that I was not implying that the mistake was YOURS -- heavens, no. You quoted properly.
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Bindair Dundat



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 1123

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ohman wrote:

Do you really believe that your points are fair and valid analogies?


Analogies? No, not analogies. Certainly not.

Fair and valid criticism, yes.

But not analogies. Gracious, no.

ohman wrote:
I'd like to know.


Now you do! HTH
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 12397
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:55 am    Post subject: salts Reply with quote

Ohman

For your own sake, leave, and get a job where things are more to your liking. You are not doing yourself any favours by staying with SALTS.


Last edited by scot47 on Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
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ohman



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 239
Location: B' Um Fouk, Egypt

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cleo--

After the massacres in Spain, there was much high fiving and a general mood of jubilation among my students. Sickens me to think about it.

I'm doing what little I can here and elsewhere--blogs, discussion threads. Letters to hometown newspapers. I don't doubt that I am simply whizzing in the wind, jousting with windmills, what have you, but it's better than doing nothing.

I've lived in Kuwait. UAE. I know theabuse of TCN labor occurs in each, but I do recall the English dailies in both countries reporting abuse and government action in each country resolving the problems.

As for the UAE, well, can there be a more enlightened visionary in these parts than Zayed or Maktoum? The Crown Prince in Kuwait seems to also be a pretty decent fellow, a square shooter. There, Sheikh Jaber has the backbone to tell the mutawa to bugger off each time they propose limiting women's rights to equal education.

Sanctions. Boycott. Maybe under better leadership, Iraq can become the world's chief supplier of oil. Then I for one would be glad to tell the Saudis to go eff themselves until they mend their barbarous ways. Or they can just send home all the infidels and live in isolation behind their sealed borders ala China before Nixon or Nepal before the the late fifties--until their own low profile visionaries have the cajones to tell the barbarians to make haste for Mecca and Medina and stay there.

Why are these enlightened Saudis so freaking gutless anyway? ARen't they the majority?

Saudi money is without doubt killing innocent people in Moscow, Madrid, have murdered over 3,000 Americans, just murdered another 200 or so in Baghdad.
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ohman



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 239
Location: B' Um Fouk, Egypt

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scot--
BH is a good friend of mine and I would be happy to PM you on his take. but please edit your post and delete his name or at least use initials. Thanks
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12877
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:30 pm    Post subject: Huh?? Reply with quote

Dear ohman,

"Why are these enlightened Saudis so freaking gutless anyway? ARen't they the majority?"

If by "enlightened" you mean what I think you do, then I'm more than a little surprised you could ask the second question.

Regards,
John

P.S. Just to clarify - and before I get TOO "flamed", I believe "enlightened"
people have always been in the minority everywhere.
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ohman



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 239
Location: B' Um Fouk, Egypt

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By enlightened I mean those whom I've spoken to who know that a lot of riyals end up in Dubai and who have much admiration for Sheikh Zayed. By enlightened I mean those who realize there is great tourism potential here as well as all of the resources to compete with the UAE or Malaysia without compromsing their faith.

Still, the forward thinking Saudis dare not speak out against the (what?) the ten percent who insist that their brand of Islam is THE brand of Islam. and who run the show here. The bearded ones are outnumbered. Their ideals are more than just a little responsible for the murders of non-Muslims throughout the world.

Now that Spain is pulling out as a direct result of the recent slaughter, expect more of the same.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12877
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:01 pm    Post subject: Enlightenment can be harazdous to your health Reply with quote

Dear ohman,
I still think you're being overly optimistic if you believe that the majority of Saudis are "enlightened" - even according to your definition. As is probably the case in most other countries, the majority of the population isn't all that concerned with "the big picture"; the majority is a lot more worried about matters relating to everyday life: jobs, money, children, etc. (remember the Clinton mantra: "It's the economy, stupid."). If things are going fairly well for most people, they tend towards "conservatism", I'd say - believing that any change is likely to be for the worse. Yes, I agree that the "fanatics" are in the minority, but I'd say that what Yeats wrote is still true:

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all convictions, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity."


And here's a story from the "Arab News" - were the arrested "reformers" among the "enlightened"?

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=41498&d=19&m=3&y=2004

or is this gentleman still more the "ideal" (for many Saudi men)?

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=41504&d=19&m=3&y=2004

One last point - since the Spanish Socialist Party AND the majority of the Spanish people were against being part of the so-called "Coalition of the Willing" all along, I'd disagree with this statement:

"Now that Spain is pulling out as a direct result of the recent slaughter, expect more of the same."

I tend to agree instead with Ms Dowd:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/18/opinion/18DOWD.html

and, from this site:

http://libsoc.blogspot.com/

"There is some truth in this: the belief that Aznar’s backing for the US military action in Iraq made Spain a target for Islamist terror appears to have had a big effect on some voters, and the Socialists undoubtedly won support from their promise to withdraw the Spanish contingent from the coalition forces occupying Iraq — a promise repeated by Zapatero (with qualifications) after winning the election.

But to extrapolate from this that the Spanish have collectively decided that the best way of coping with Islamist terror is to withdraw from confrontation — capitulation or considered rejection of a counter-productive US policy depending on your point of view — is utterly ludicrous.

Sunday’s vote was not an endorsement of copping out of opposition to Islamist terror: it was a vote against politicians’ opportunist exploitation of mass murder, a vote for less self-serving rhetoric and more effective action against the mass murderers.

Yes, the Socialists were against the war in Iraq, as were the overwhelming majority of Spanish people. But voters who were anti-war above all else were committed to the PSOE and other left parties long before the train bombings and long before the late swing that pushed them into power. The Socialists owe their victory to people unmoved by their anti-war message but disgusted by the right’s lack of respect for the dead. If Zapatero is going to retain the suport of those voters, he’s going to have to take as tough a line against terror and terrorists as any other western government leader — though how his “troops out of Iraq” policy can possibly be seen as tough is hard to see."

Regards,
John
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ohman



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 239
Location: B' Um Fouk, Egypt

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

You read way too much in my comment about Spain. Simply put, the slaughter was funded by Saudi money.

Is this the same Ms. Dowd who insisted we'd invaded the wrong Arab country (meaning Saudi Arabia, not Iraq). I'm pretty sure it is.

Again, the mass murders of 9/11, the slaughter of innocents in Moscow, Turkey, the horrible killings in Spain were financed by the Saudis. There are a billion Muslims in the world and only a few thousand of them have the money to spend on the terror campaign.

Keep it simple, John. Follow the money.
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Stephen Jones



Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Ohman,
You haven't got a shred of proof that the Saudis had anything to do with the Madrid bombings,and it is clear that you have simply flipped and lost all sense of reason or proportion.

Folllow the money is a meaningless cliche. It normally leads back to the US anyway.
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 12397
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:09 pm    Post subject: Madrid Reply with quote

"The Saudis are behind it." All of them ?

To me that sounds a bit redolent of the slogan used in the 1930's "The Jews are our Misfortune".

Finance may be coming from some but to say that the Saudiis are behind it is going too far.
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Cleopatra



Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ohman,

You seem to have changed your tune. Wern't you the one with the tagline about never getting involved in a land ar in Asia? BTW, Spain is planning towithdraw its troops from Iraq because its people never wanted to be there in the first place and it was always Socialst policy to withdraw. It has NOTHING to do with being "soft on terror".

I think scot is on the mark. Obviously some Saudis have been involved in terror financing on a large scale (something the Americans cna't possibly have been unaware of, but didn't care until it backfired on them, ditto the Saudis themselves) but to blame a country of 15 million people for the actions of a few is outrageous. I'm sure you wouldn't want to be blamed for the actions of your government - I certainly would not want to be judged by theactions of some of my compatriots!

As for the other gulf countries, apart from a greater concentration on "Islam" in KSA, the lives and outlooks of most locals in Kuwait or the UAE - corrrect meif I'm wrong - aren't terribly different than in KSA. It's just that places like the UAE pander to "Westerners" and their intolerance of all things ARab. If Kuwait is so "enlightened" why is it one of the very few countries on earch which specifically denies women the vote?

As for boycotting KSA, well, that just ain't going to happen. Whatever way you cut it - and iraq is not going to be a viable source of oil for at least 5 years and possibly much longer - the Kingdom happens to own fully one quarter of the world's oil supply. Given that the "leader of the free world" is a second-rate oil-man with tight connections to the Saudi elite, Saudi ARabia is going to remain centre stage for some considerable time to come.

I agree witht he above posters. You have clearly reached the end of the line in KSA and should be considering other options.
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 12397
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:55 pm    Post subject: Who is behind it ? Reply with quote

"The Saudis are behind it."

Most of the finace for the various wings of the IRA has come and continues to come from the US.

Can I then conclude that "The US financed the Omagh bombing." ?

I think not.

What I think is that ohman has lost touch with the ground under his feat. My prescription ? Some R and R far from Taif.
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Cleopatra



Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Scot you took the words right out of my mouth re. US funding of the IRA. It was all done quite openly too.
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