Job Discussion Forums

[Guy Courchesne]

One of things I think is difficult to get used to arriving in Mexico for the first time is the cultural cues in communication that tell you what a person is really telling you. Little things like ahorita to tell you to wait awhile (or dismiss you) or how to schedule a meeting when time is flexible.

So what are the cues - verbal and non-verbal - that tell you what to expect?

In a job context, I can think of some English phrases we use to be polite, or to dismiss someone 'nicely'.

Q. Hey boss, how about a raise this year?
A. Let me get back to you on that or I'll look into it

After 10 years here, I still don't have it all down to the science of Mexican, though I can spot a lot of hidden meaning. Ideas?

[Phil_K]

I think the big question is; Do we have to accept things, saying "That's the way it�s done here", even if we know there is a better way, or can we use our knowledge of another culture to try to improve things, at least in our little corner of the world?

Even after nearly ten years, I cannot accept things which go against my prinicples. For example, addressing someone, (particularly me), as "Joven", still rankles with me, however much I'm told it's polite, it sounds patronising or even plain disrespectful.

For my two cents worth, I won't tolerate lateness, as I think we have to value our own time, and if I schedule a meeting, it starts and finishes on time - if someone misses out on vital information, that's their problem.

Regarding the yes/no question, I agree that in Mexico it is not common to give an outright "no", but experience shows you how to gauge the degree of enthusiasm and whether to hold your breath for a definite yes.

I guess Americans would find most problem with this as they are known to be more direct; the British less so (although in that respect, I prefer the American way!)

[notamiss]

You're probably ahead of me, Guy, on reading the subtle signals. My biggest clue that I didn't get it is after the fact, when things don't go the way I thought everyone said they were going to.

[MotherF]

Phil you ought to be flattered when people call you joven.
My husband is 33 and he's tickeled to get a joven now and again rather than se�or.

For yes-no, it's usually evident in the body language (at least to me). The level of enthusiasium, the length of the pauses. But I also think never ever take the first answer as the definitive answer, whether it's yes or no. This is especially true in work situations. Just know that the first converstation is mearly presenting the idea to the others, even if yes or no is said then--that's not the final answer.

And I've also found that you really need to make sure you are asking the right person. It seems like saying, "It's not up to me" is a big loss of face here. For example a midlevel admin person will say "yes" when the real answer is I think that's a good idea, but we need to move up the ladder with it. S/he will then take it to the next level as their own idea. And if the higher up says yes, they will take the credit, if the higher up says no, they will credit you!

[Guy Courchesne]

[Enchilada Potosina]

I think I'm at the point (after nearly 6 years here) where I accept the way things are done here, and even do those things myself. I may not like certain things (like lateness or that annoying signal for 'wait a second') but I don't get offended anymore. Time is not used in a productive way in Mexico, and probably never will be.

[TeresaLopez]

Joven is not really so much a reflection on your age as it can be used to show subtle, or not so subtle, class differences. If it really is a young man, fine, but once a man is past 30 or so, it is usually used to put someone in their place, or to express what you believe is a superior social class. If someone is calling a 40 year old man �joven�it�s like calling him a muchacho, which also has subtle, and not so subtle, uses in terms of social class. If an unknown person is addressing me I quite like �jefa�, haha, not too crazy about do�a, and for me se�ora is neutral. But it�s an interesting topic. I think for non-Mexicans you do start to understand the various levels of response after a while, but the use of some words can be more subtle. As for an answer beginning with �pues�, yeah, it�s usually going to be a �whatever occurs to me at the moment�answer. One thing I have done with some degree of success it to put a time limit on when I need an answer, and if they don�t reply by then I go along my merry way. If they reply after the date, I express surprise, and say, Oh, I�m sorry, when I didn�t hear from you by such and such a date, I assumed you weren�t interested so made other plans. I find a lot of people learn something from that, haha, especially if it is something they really need.

[MotherF]

Joven must be used differently by los defectosos. In Oaxaca it's the male equivalent of se�orita. You are in danger of offeding a early middle aged man if you use se�or, cabellero, don, or any other option.

[Phil_K]

It definitely seems to be a class thing - but I'm not quite sure what Teresa was refering to. The strange thing is it seems to be used two ways, both upwards in the class scale (lower class people refer to obviously more affluent people thus) and downwards (Middle class > waiter/security guard, etc).

I helped an old man (probably middle class) in the street once, who was stumbling and about to fall. "Muchas gracias, muy amable, Se�or" was his way of thanking me. I always feel good when a senior citizen calls me Se�or! I'm 48.

[doublethinker]

Does "si means no" apply to job offers as well? Has anyone thought they had a straightforward job offer but actually didn't? I believe that just happened to me. (Good thing I didn't give in to temptation and buy new clothes before the first paycheck came in...)

[fieldsofbarley]

Yes, I was thinking about this the other day. When I first arrived the "si-no" issue pissed me off big time, as well as the lack of formality (you make arrangements to meet with someone, then they cancel at short notice).

Mexican Spanish is full of "subtleties" like these. I�ve also noticed the way people start asking questions: "no tendria...?" (wouldn�t you have...) or "le molesto con..." (I bother you with...). It�s as if they anticipate a negative answer and they try to mitigate the psychological effects of a "no".

Strange...

[MotherF]

[fieldsofbarley]

Yes, we do it in English, a language in which we use indirect questions. Not so in Spanish, where questions are direct 99% of the time (and I know because I�m bilingual). Mexican Spanish seems to use indirect questions too, but this atypical for Spanish speakers.

[Isla Guapa]

[fieldsofbarley]

Actually, I haven�t done a survey myself, but a friend from Argentina is doing a large-scale study for her master�s dissertation. So far, Mexican Spanish comes out first in the use of "indirect questions" and ambiguities (there�s a technical term for that in linguistics which I can�t remember). Second place goes to Guatemala, then Peru or Bolivia, not 100% sure which of the two. You can interpret it as as way of being "polite", however she�s linking it to the fact that these countries have a high percentage of indigenous people and these expressions could be remainders of a "servile" attitude forced by the arrival of the Spaniards.

On the typicality or lack of it of these expressions, one of her questionnaires included multiple choice sentences - participants had to choose the one that sounded more "natural" to them. Some were "direct", others "indirect". The vast majority of native Spanish speakers opted for the "direct" choice.

These may not be proven scientific facts, but according to my experience of living in various Spanish-speaking countries, I assert that in many aspects, Mexican Spanish is an exception to the rule(s).