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Distance degrees aren't recognised
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veiledsentiments



Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 16183
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Byro,

Don't feel bad - look at how many posts I've made and I still don't know how to make the quote thing work either. I'm sure it's easy, but I just put "quote" marks to cover myself. Smile

Chris

You'll have to just watch this space to see what happens with DDs. Right now if you are after one of the tertiary jobs, there is no problem. Another note for you is that they tend to count experience 'after' the MA, and normally look for 3-5 years after MA for the best paying jobs.

Just be sure that your distance degree is from a legit, recognized university and hopefully, there will be no problem.

VS
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Chris_Crossley



Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1797
Location: Still in the centre of Furnace City, PRC, after eight years!!!

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:25 am    Post subject: How to quote people Reply with quote

veiledsentiments wrote:
Quote:
Don't feel bad - look at how many posts I've made and I still don't know how to make the quote thing work either. I'm sure it's easy, but I just put "quote" marks to cover myself.


It's easy when you know the sequence:
1. Click on "Quote" above the message box before you start. The word, quote, will appear within square brackets in the box where the cursor is. The quote icon will now show Quote* on it.
2. Highlight the text you want to quote, then go to Edit and click on Cut.
3. Go back to the message box, place the cursor next to the word quote in square brackets, then go back to Edit and click on Paste. The text you want to quote should then appear. Make sure the cursor is now next to the end of the text.
4. Go back to the Quote* icon and click upon it. The word, quote, preceded by a forward slash should appear within square brackets. Note that the * on the icon means that you have to click on it again to finish the quote. The forward slash indicates that now the quote is finished.

If that's too messy, you can always physically type the word, quote, in square brackets, then the text, then [/quote] using the keyboard. That works, too, because I've done it myself. I hope that helps.

veiledsentiments wrote:
Quote:
They tend to count experience 'after' the MA, and normally look for 3-5 years after MA for the best paying jobs.


Yes, VS, I remember either you or someone else saying this in an earlier post. I would imagine that the UAE would want to see evidence of work experience directly related to the master's degree rather than simply teaching, for which a bachelor's degree will suffice. Otherwise, why get an MA in education in the first place if you are not somehow going to use it?
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veiledsentiments



Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 16183
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Chris,

But, somehow I think it is just easier to copy, paste and put in quotes. just lazy I guess. Smile

As to the MA+experience, they are rather obsessed with degrees in the ME. The one time they do consider pre-MA experience (though it will not raise your pay - only help your being considered) is if you have direct ME or experience with Arabic speakers. Other experience that can be helpful is direct experience in Academic English (not test prep).

Good Luck

VS
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Chris_Crossley



Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1797
Location: Still in the centre of Furnace City, PRC, after eight years!!!

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:46 am    Post subject: Distance degrees aren't recognised Reply with quote

veiledsentiments wrote:
Quote:
As to the MA+experience, they are rather obsessed with degrees in the ME. The one time they do consider pre-MA experience (though it will not raise your pay - only help your being considered) is if you have direct ME or experience with Arabic speakers.


I hope that this is not some kind of "Catch-22" situation, as in "no-ME-experience, no-ME-job, no-ME-job, no-ME-experience". I have spent practically my entire TEFL career in China so far (more than 2 1/2 years' teaching experience in the Middle Kingdom) with two 2-week summer schools back in the UK before that (just after getting my Trinity Cert in TESOL).

If I were to come to the UAE with, say, 5-6 years' experience in China plus a distance MA, what would be my chances of getting a high-salaried job compared to those who, say, already do have ME/UAE experience but no MA?
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Bindair Dundat



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 1123

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: Distance degrees aren't recognised Reply with quote

Chris_Crossley wrote:

If I were to come to the UAE with, say, 5-6 years' experience in China plus a distance MA, what would be my chances of getting a high-salaried job compared to those who, say, already do have ME/UAE experience but no MA?


Compared only to someone with no MA, your chances would be good; however, there are plenty of people with ME experience *and* non-distance MAs running around; compared to them, your chances of getting a top-paying job in the UAE would not be good at all.

You might get *a* job in the UAE, but not a high-salaried one. I'd suggest calling Ajman U. of Science and Technology.

BD
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veiledsentiments



Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 16183
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris,

The Gulf job market for the highest paying jobs is naturally VERY competitive. And, of course, there is the question of what 'you' consider 'high-paying.' From what I hear salaries and benefits in China are mostly very low.

To be realistic, your first job in the Emirates will certainly not be one of the plums. You will find that most Middle East teachers are older (35-60), married, and have been in the field for years. That is your competition.

But, why restrict yourself to the UAE? You may even want to look at some of the other countries like Oman to get Middle East experience. You need to get your foot in the door, and manage to avoid the really bad places. Smile Getting that first job when you have a freshly minted MA can be difficult.

Then once your experience matches the majority of applicants, you can move up to the best paying jobs. Just like in any field.

VS
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Chris_Crossley



Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1797
Location: Still in the centre of Furnace City, PRC, after eight years!!!

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:38 pm    Post subject: Distance degrees aren't recognised Reply with quote

veiledsentiments wrote:
Quote:
You will find that most Middle East teachers are older (35-60), married, and have been in the field for years.


For the record, I am in this age group and I am married with a little baby daughter, so I think I fit some of the "ideal" criteria that ME schools may be looking for inasmuch as I'm not a young (18-25 y.o.) backpacker looking to make a few bob on the side during the summer. (Mind you, that may not be possible in the UAE, am I right? I'm just guessing here!)

If I do an online master's degree in education and remain in China the whole time I do it (say, three years), then, by the time I get the degree, it'll Beijing Olympics time (2008) and I would have been in China for almost exactly seven years teaching English.

Based on what you said, VS, and on what I've just said above, what are my chances of getting a "good" (whatever that is) salary in my first TEFL job in the UAE, d'y'think?
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veiledsentiments



Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 16183
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris,

My crystal ball as to the employment situation three years from now is a bit cloudy, but assuming the world doesn't get even worse, I would think it would be just as I said.

You can probably get a job, but also probably not at your first choice --- or maybe not even your second. Like I said, don't restrict yourself to just the Emirates, but look at the whole Gulf area, your minimum salary should be in the US$2000-2500 range plus free furnished housing, tickets for the family, health care, and 6-8 weeks paid vacation plus holidays.

So, get that MA and more experience - your age and family status will count in your favor, and keep reading here to get familiar with the names and reputations of the various institutions so that you know which you want to apply to. Not much more that you can do related to your situation three years from now. Smile

VS
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Rice Paddy Daddy



Joined: 11 Jul 2004
Posts: 425
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd avoid distance degrees.

sheet, they can be done on-campus in about 8 months or so nowadays if you don't do a thesis.

8 courses for an M.A. TESOL in Australia - 4 courses a semester.

don't risk all that time, emotion and money on a degree that may not be recognized in certain countries.
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Chris_Crossley



Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1797
Location: Still in the centre of Furnace City, PRC, after eight years!!!

PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:02 am    Post subject: Distance degrees aren't recognised Reply with quote

Rice Paddy Daddy wrote:
Quote:
I'd avoid distance degrees.[...]don't risk all that time, emotion and money on a degree that may not be recognized in certain countries.

Distance degrees may be the only alternative to on-campus programmes for a lot of people who have to work for a living (which I do) and have a family, say, a wife and daughter (which I do).

Taking time out to do an on-campus degree seems to be nowadays the privilege of those who can afford to do so (because they may still be foot-loose and fancy-free and/or may have no bills or debts to pay). Many people are just not in the position to take up to 12 months off from the "rat race" to undertake a graduate degree programme, because it may mean either having no part-time job (no time, really, if one is doing an intensive programme, such as the 11-month MBA I took back in 1998-99) or else a part-time job that does not pay very much money.

For me, having money coming in is a priority because I have family and financial commitments, including saving money for my own daughter's education, so doing a distance degree may be the only path I have to getting a master's degree. Besides which, I already have both a B.A. and a B.Sc., both studied for by distance learning, from the (U.K.) Open University, and they were certainly worth the time and the money to do those programmes.

Taking, say, 1 year off for an on-campus programme will mean that you will have 1 year less (full-time) work experience. If you are looking at an ad that says "5 years' experience" and you only have 4 because you took a year off to do a master's, you may regret it because it may seem to be the "ideal" job - if there is such a thing in the TEFL world, that is.

I am still contemplating undertaking an online master's degree in education from the autumn of 2005 and my wife has said that she will give me moral (if not financial!) support to do the degree. Juggling both study and work may not be an easy task, but it is the challenge that I am looking forward to.

As for the recognition (or lack thereof) of distance degrees in countries outside the one where the degree was granted, there are, for sure, a lot of countries where they are recognised, so there seems little point in tearing one's hair out (proverbially) over the refusal of some countries (or at least institutions within countries) to recognise them. Simply go and find a job at those institutions which DO recognise them! There must be plenty of them around!
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Rice Paddy Daddy



Joined: 11 Jul 2004
Posts: 425
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crossley,

Your comments are not untrue.

However, dropping $15,000 or even more on tuition to have a degree that is only accepted by some governments and institutions doesn't sound so great to me and, I imgaine a lot of other people.

Everyone's life circumstances are different and you can only do what you can do.

I'm still trying to determine which M.E. countries do not recognize degrees obtained by distance.
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well-travelled



Joined: 19 Mar 2003
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Ministry of Education in UAE does not recognise distance MAs, but the Ministry of Higher Education does (hence the discrepancy between, say, MLI and UAEU).

Kuwait University is another body that does not recognise them - but since the latter only pays about GBP16,000 per year and Kuwait is hardly the most prepossessing location to live in, they can keep it.

It's been said before on Dave's, but it bears repeating: Distance MAs have as much validity - and I would argue greater validity - than non-distant MAs - especially if we are talking about /b]APPLIED linguistics. It means you can relate theory to practice and vice-versa at the chalk-face as you work your way through the various modules. Your immediate work situation provides a focus for action research etc..

It's also hard work; mine took two to three years in total.

The failure of certain Middle Eastern bodies to acknowledge the above is more a reflection of their own ignorance than on the lack of validity of distance degrees per se.

well-travelled
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Rice Paddy Daddy



Joined: 11 Jul 2004
Posts: 425
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well-travelled,

Thanks - a lot of hard-workng people save up a lot of money and spend a few years of their lives earning these distance degrees only to find out that the degrees are not recognized by some governments/institutions.

Taiwan is another country which does not recognize degrees obtained by distance (see Taiwan forum for more on this subject and Scott Sommers interpretation of the situation in Taiwan).

Korean universities have also reportedly been biased against distance M.A. degrees (see Ryst Helmet's posts on the matter on the Korean forum).

Again, it's probably more a reflection of ignorance by those who draft such policies which fail to recognize distance degrees.
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well-travelled



Joined: 19 Mar 2003
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rice Paddy Daddy -

Thanks. I was unaware of the situation in Taiwan & Korea. Interesting that the phenomenon is so wide-spread.

Why so many regard distance MAs as Mickey Mouse degrees is hard for me to understand. I suppose there is the notion that distance MAs can be faked more easily than non-distance degrees, but 'real' distance MAs can easily be verified by checking with the claimed issuing institution. And there's no reason why non-distance MAs can't be forged either. I get daily Spam emails offering me degree certificates!!

well-travelled
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Rice Paddy Daddy



Joined: 11 Jul 2004
Posts: 425
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well-travelled wrote:
Why so many regard distance MAs as Mickey Mouse degrees is hard for me to understand. I suppose there is the notion that distance MAs can be faked more easily than non-distance degrees...

I think that's partly the reason. Also, Chinese (Asian culture) is distrustful of distance/on-line learning formats as this is foreign to their culture.

Those who are in authority to draft policies that exclude degrees obtained by distance have no experience with this style of learning and are actually not supportive of it.
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