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Violence/Drug Wars/Safety(Includes Guadalajara-U.S. Warning)
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Guy Courchesne



Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9381
Location: Mexico City

PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Not drugs related at all.


But they used grenades...that's not your average drinking dispute. Of course it's cartel related.
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gregd75



Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 360
Location: Tlaquepaque, Jalisco

PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just quoting the police.

And my point being that we can't start living in fear.
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Prof.Gringo



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1931
Location: Paradise, Paradise, Paradise!

PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gregd75 wrote:
Just quoting the police.

And my point being that we can't start living in fear.


And if we can't even own guns legally or use them in self-defense while killing sprees, kidnappings and armed robberies are daily common events in Mexico, sounds like fear to me.
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Prof.Gringo



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1931
Location: Paradise, Paradise, Paradise!

PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the peanut gallery wrote:
"....ALSO - why doesn't the U.S accept that in the VAST MAJORITY of these incidents, the bad guys are using U.S sourced weapons? ....."


Completely incorrect! Looks like the 90 percent myth snagged another one.


GREAT POINT!
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Prof.Gringo



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1931
Location: Paradise, Paradise, Paradise!

PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gregd75 wrote:
I'd much rather drive in Guadalajara at night than drive in Los Angeles or say Washington D.C at night.

And let's face it... if the U.S could seriously do something about their huge consumption of drugs then this would all be academic.

I love the way U.S news agencies blow things out of proportion.


I'll take LA or DC over Mexico DF ANYDAY!

The PRI was involved in a big way with the cartels for years. If Mexico's govt and security forces were not so corrupted, this problem would never have gotten so out of control in Mexico and by extension, the USA.

When more are killed in Mexico in one year than in some countries that are in an official state of war, I would call that being right in proportion to the reality of the situation.
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fladude



Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Posts: 432

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hand grenades are not sold in the US.

The AK-47s I see on the news are normally Chinese (and yes I can tell the difference). Those are not coming from the US, since the import of Chinese rifles has been banned since the early 90s. The semi-auto AKs sold in the US today are Romanian and Russian. Guns like RPKs, PPKs (belt fed machine guns) hand grenades and rocket launchers are not coming from the US. While I am sure that some guns are coming from the US, especially handguns, even if we stopped selling guns in America tomorrow someone else would fill the void. Money talks and there are plenty of countries which make and export guns including countries in South America and Asia.

Personally I would prefer to be armed rather than just having armed criminals around.

Anyway I just stopped in looking for a CELTA course in Mexico for this summer. Very Happy
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Phil_K



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 1816
Location: A World of my Own

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It always amazes me how people seem to love to talk about, and have "expert" knowledge of, all kinds of weapons.

What is the fascination? They have no place in my world.
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Guy Courchesne



Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9381
Location: Mexico City

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Anyway I just stopped in looking for a CELTA course in Mexico for this summer.


Grenades, AKs, and CELTA...Mexico has it all. Wink

Quote:
When more are killed in <insert country here> in one year than in some countries that are in an official state of war, I would call that being right in proportion to the reality of the situation.


And if we put the US in that quote and saw it was still true, would your opinion hold I wonder?
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Prof.Gringo



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1931
Location: Paradise, Paradise, Paradise!

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fladude wrote:
Hand grenades are not sold in the US.

The AK-47s I see on the news are normally Chinese (and yes I can tell the difference). Those are not coming from the US, since the import of Chinese rifles has been banned since the early 90s. The semi-auto AKs sold in the US today are Romanian and Russian. Guns like RPKs, PPKs (belt fed machine guns) hand grenades and rocket launchers are not coming from the US. While I am sure that some guns are coming from the US, especially handguns, even if we stopped selling guns in America tomorrow someone else would fill the void. Money talks and there are plenty of countries which make and export guns including countries in South America and Asia.

Personally I would prefer to be armed rather than just having armed criminals around.

Anyway I just stopped in looking for a CELTA course in Mexico for this summer. Very Happy


Good post!

Thanks.

I also have some knowledge when it comes to firearms and weapons systems.

I would also feel much safer if I could keep some firepower around the house and in my car. I always kept it simple and just opted for a 12-gauge shotgun.
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the peanut gallery



Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 264

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greg,

"...Nop. All fact here.... looking forward to reading the proof to back up your wild statement, the peanut gallery..."

Here is what the world's leading strategic forecasting consultancy thinks about your statement:

"By the Numbers

As we discussed in a previous analysis, the 90 percent number was derived from a June 2009 U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) report to Congress on U.S. efforts to combat arms trafficking to Mexico (see external link).

According to the GAO report, some 30,000 firearms were seized from criminals by Mexican authorities in 2008. Of these 30,000 firearms, information pertaining to 7,200 of them (24 percent) was submitted to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) for tracing. Of these 7,200 guns, only about 4,000 could be traced by the ATF, and of these 4,000, some 3,480 (87 percent) were shown to have come from the United States.


This means that the 87 percent figure relates to the number of weapons submitted by the Mexican government to the ATF that could be successfully traced and not from the total number of weapons seized by Mexican authorities or even from the total number of weapons submitted to the ATF for tracing. In fact, the 3,480 guns positively traced to the United States equals less than 12 percent of the total arms seized in Mexico in 2008 and less than 48 percent of all those submitted by the Mexican government to the ATF for tracing. This means that almost 90 percent of the guns seized in Mexico in 2008 were not traced back to the United States.

The remaining 22,800 firearms seized by Mexican authorities in 2008 were not traced for a variety of reasons. In addition to factors such as bureaucratic barriers and negligence, many of the weapons seized by Mexican authorities either do not bear serial numbers or have had their serial numbers altered or obliterated. It is also important to understand that the Mexican authorities simply donít bother to submit some classes of weapons to the ATF for tracing. Such weapons include firearms they identify as coming from their own military or police forces, or guns that they can trace back themselves as being sold through the Mexican Defense Departmentís Arms and Ammunition Marketing Division (UCAM). Likewise, they do not ask ATF to trace military ordnance from third countries like the South Korean fragmentation grenades commonly used in cartel attacks.

Of course, some or even many of the 22,800 firearms the Mexicans did not submit to ATF for tracing may have originated in the United States. But according to the figures presented by the GAO, there is no evidence to support the assertion that 90 percent of the guns used by the Mexican cartels come from the United States ó especially when not even 50 percent of those that were submitted for tracing were ultimately found to be of U.S. origin."

Wild statement on my part i think not.
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Spector



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guy Courchesne wrote:
It would be a shame to have them canceled and a big blow to GDL and Mexico as a whole. They managed to pull off the Commonwealth games in India recently under similar concerns of safety (terror attacks in the Indian case) and Brazil got the World Cup and Olympics and is running a similar War on Crime/Drugs to prepare. The Mexican government is going to have work very hard through the summer to keep the games I suspect.


Remember also that South Africa successfully hosted last year's World Cup and it has a serious problem with crime in general, the main reason many people questioned it going there in the first place.

Why are murder rates in the Americas so high in general though? Look at the top five in the following list, and there's quite a few more below it before we get to dear old Mexico...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
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Guy Courchesne



Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9381
Location: Mexico City

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spector wrote:
Guy Courchesne wrote:
It would be a shame to have them canceled and a big blow to GDL and Mexico as a whole. They managed to pull off the Commonwealth games in India recently under similar concerns of safety (terror attacks in the Indian case) and Brazil got the World Cup and Olympics and is running a similar War on Crime/Drugs to prepare. The Mexican government is going to have work very hard through the summer to keep the games I suspect.


Remember also that South Africa successfully hosted last year's World Cup and it has a serious problem with crime in general, the main reason many people questioned it going there in the first place.

Why are murder rates in the Americas so high in general though? Look at the top five in the following list, and there's quite a few more below it before we get to dear old Mexico...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate


True enough. Perhaps Mexico should hire Shakira to conjure up a song to make everyone feel better. Very Happy Too late for the LPGA though.
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gregd75



Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 360
Location: Tlaquepaque, Jalisco

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Wild statement on my part i think not.


I still think it is a wild statement. Of course the U.S government wouldn't actually ADMIT that they are one of the causes of the problems, would they?

I mean the U.S government... take responsibility? The U.S people take responsibility- well, let's be honest and say Hell is more likely to freeze over than that.

I'll tackle the gun problem in a different angle, shall I?

IF the guns aren't coming through the drugs tunnels under the U.S-Mexico border (which is very obviously the case)... where are they coming from?

China?
Russia?
Germany?
Colombia?
India?

Come on....this borders on ridiculous. Oh, of course you believe that Mexicans manufacture their own weapons?

Now, believing the guns in Mexico come from anywhere OTHER than the U.S- now that is laughable.
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gregd75



Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 360
Location: Tlaquepaque, Jalisco

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have posted on the '90% myth' thread some counter arguements to the idea that guns are not coming from the U.S

** Although I agree that maybe not 90% - I'd be confident to say THE MAJORITY
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the peanut gallery



Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 264

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greg,

I agree with you in that the US drug consumption is a leading cause of the violence problem we are experiencing here in Mexico. But "vast majority" are the words you used. Those words are trotted out as political rhetoric on both sides of the border. You yourself stated the those very words. When a lie gets repeated often enough in the public domain it becomes truth.

Black market arms is an international business, not just a north american one. Do you really believe the USA is responsible for all the weapons being used here? If so, why back peddle from most to vast majority to majority then? Why is everything the fault of the American people and their govt? Mexico has no responsibility for her own citizens' safety?

I see nothing at all "wild" about me posting an article which sheds some light on what the real numbers are. Of course you dont need to believe the article or the numbers quoted. But to call my post a wild statement seems a bit over the top.

I know we have differing views on many subjects but i hope we can have interesting dialog despite our differences.

Off topic, i will be in GDL this weekend. Could you recommend a good Korean restaurant for me to visit?
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