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Wave 110 convert to a 130. Fast as hell.
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CThomas



Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 380
Location: HCMC, Vietnam

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:52 pm    Post subject: Wave 110 convert to a 130. Fast as hell. Reply with quote

Hey all,

A little break from talk of school and the economy. Motorbikes!

My cousin (VinaSun driver by day, gearhead by night) just bored out my Wave 110 to a 130 and rebuilt my carburetor to feed it. I just blew away all the kids on the way back home. Incredible upgrade. No Chinese bull####.

If you drive a Wave 110 and want a (very) noticeable level up, ping me. 3M VND puts you way ahead of the Future and deep into 125-150 (Airblade, SH) territory. Best $150 I've spent here. (I kicked him back a few hundred (like $15) and he is all over this.) You are welcome to take my bike out for a spin to feel this noticeably stronger power. Bring a good helmet. 1-day turnaround if you want to do it. Seriously, it's as strong as you can handle here in the city. You'll see. Very Happy

District 3 (by 1 and 10). Peace!
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mark_in_saigon



Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:51 pm    Post subject: yeah, emailed you, great news on finding this guy Reply with quote

This is freaking EXACTLY what I have been seeking. I have a 97cc setup I want to increase to MAXIMUM displacement, and am not able to get accommodated by the VN. Please send me whatever contact details you have on this person, as I REALLY want to do this. I have the 97cc on a 67 (the old cafe racer), would like to also consider moving to a 5 speed, although most of the guys say the 5 speeds are weak. If so, may just change the sprockets a bit after the increase in displacement. I also have a 50cc supercub I want to increase to the freaking max, and move it from 3 speed to 4 (unless 5 is somehow doable). Thanks for posting this, I thought I was the only one crazy enough to want this upgrade, and was afraid I would have to confer with the red haired "hero drivers" boys to find out where to get this done at a reasonable price.
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mark_in_saigon



Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:05 pm    Post subject: uhhh Reply with quote

I am assuming this can be done to a 97cc (so called 100), which supposedly can take the newer, larger 110 cc cylinder. I am also assuming this was stroked as well as being bored, right? I think you could not increase displacement that much strictly by bore, the engine dynamics need to be balanced, uhhh, right? That is what the guys who really know this stuff tell me anyway. That is a very large increase just increasing bore alone, and if we are gonna get stupid, lets go all the way anyway and stroke it too. 125 - 130 cc's on one of these older lightweight classic hondas has been my dream for quite some time now. Tell your amigo I am all in on both machines if he can accommodate me. Please let me know about the stroking issue, as I am seeking MAXIMUM displacement. Thanks.
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CThomas



Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 380
Location: HCMC, Vietnam

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark,

Good Lord, you are overclocking that thing, man! I think you are maxed out, but what do I know? Let me think through this....

This setup is for the Wave 110. I think the upgraded cubs like you have might actually be able to beat these in a full-on drag race. But, alas, they're so small, aren't they? I just put a big, beefy seat on mine, so it's like riding anything double or triple the price now, save for having to move my foot an inch each way to switch gears.

The problem, methinks, is with the bore outs. Once you bore your bike out, you distance yourself from the OED after-market parts. The bigger pistons just alter the standard config. That's what I did: I wanted to put a CMS racing cam on mine, in addition to what I have now, but couldn't after the bore. Not unless I did a smaller bore (to 125). That said, I don't think I'd really want or need it now. It is just... a rocket. Beats the little 2-stroke screamer (yz80!) dirt-bikes I rode as a kid for full-on torque and top speed now.

Honestly, I believe you're close to your max on your rig. That said, the standard 3-speed is a total tank of a transmission. It's hard to improve on that. All you can get is more bottom-end torque after that, I believe, but that leaves your top end unaccounted for. I don't know of anything out there to solve this.

I'm just brainstorming here, but... have you beefed up your carb yet? After we bored mine out, it was fast... but when my cousin rebuilt it with bigger spray nozzles and such (hell if I know, exactly), it breathed much better and really took off.

In short, it sounds like you can still beef up your carb. Other than that, you're looking at something else: like swapping up your block altogether.

Honestly, I think the only thing left for us to do is to go ahead and let the throttles fly and see which config comes out stronger. Then go from there. Very Happy
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CThomas



Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 380
Location: HCMC, Vietnam

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:40 pm    Post subject: Re: uhhh Reply with quote

mark_in_saigon wrote:
I am assuming this can be done to a 97cc (so called 100), which supposedly can take the newer, larger 110 cc cylinder. I am also assuming this was stroked as well as being bored, right? I think you could not increase displacement that much strictly by bore, the engine dynamics need to be balanced, uhhh, right? That is what the guys who really know this stuff tell me anyway. That is a very large increase just increasing bore alone, and if we are gonna get stupid, lets go all the way anyway and stroke it too. 125 - 130 cc's on one of these older lightweight classic hondas has been my dream for quite some time now. Tell your amigo I am all in on both machines if he can accommodate me. Please let me know about the stroking issue, as I am seeking MAXIMUM displacement. Thanks.


That's why we tweeked the carburetor. See my next post, and remember that I started out with a 110. Are you saying you want to start with the 110 and go up from there? If so, then I think we can do business.

Man, I'd really like to see which of these configurations comes out on top.

I think that, transmission aside, I'm at full stride with the 110. Honestly, I'm blowing the socks off everyone. You can certainly take a test run on my bike, Mark. I feel like I have the same acceleration I did on my 650's on a city block back home, but everything is relative! I can say I'm at par with the Airblades and I suprise the hell out of SH drivers.

So... honestly, I think you're maxed out on your config, but if you want to move up, consider (totally out of my ass) upgrading your block to a stock 110 and go from there or bump up to a stock 110 bike. Other than that, as I said before, bust out a good carb job if you haven't.
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CThomas



Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 380
Location: HCMC, Vietnam

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:49 pm    Post subject: Re: uhhh Reply with quote

mark_in_saigon wrote:
I am assuming this can be done to a 97cc (so called 100), which supposedly can take the newer, larger 110 cc cylinder. I am also assuming this was stroked as well as being bored, right? .


If it can be done, my cousin can do it. (I'm re-reading this again). My guess is yes: if you upgraded your block, but didn't bore, then you can probably get to 110. I don't know about stroking, but if it means doing the same thing I just had done, then I think it may be possible.
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Jbhughes



Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 254

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow.

Have to say, I'm really interested!

This is a bit of a hot topic for me at the moment, as I'm just starting to look into mods for my bike.

I've got a Honda Future X FI, which I've owned for 8 months or so, it's got nearly 10k on the clock.

When I bought the bike, my original thoughts bike were to get some use out of all the stock parts that are paid for with a new bike and then change them out for superior, higher performance parts as they needed replacing / I felt I wanted a bit more kick.

Well, the HEAD mechanics have advised me that I need to replace the drive chain, so now I'm considering replacing the sprockets as well. A bit of research later (I really don't know a lot about bikes, as much as I like them, so much of this is a big learning curve for me) and I'm now under the impression that sprocket changes (fiddling with ratios etc, along with just general higher performance parts) seem to be more often done after other, more serious mods.

I still in a big research phase, but I'm worried that my choice to shell out on the fuel injected version of the Future was not a good one. CThomas, you talk about carburettor changes to go along with changes to the bore, well I'm under the impression that the PGI-FI is not adjustable (I'm further under the impression that it restricts my performance at certain speeds/gear positions, but that's another thing entirely). Early on when I had the bike, I thought that there was a problem with the fuel injection and went into the HEAD workshop to have them take a look at it. They said that they wouldn't take off the cover and said that no-one else should either (I haven't fully translated the capital letters written across the actual cover, but I'm sure they are to that effect too).

I've also searched through a PGI-FI forum dedicated to adjusting -chipping- the ECU (http://forum.pgmfi.org) to find scant information related to motorbikes, none of which related to 1-cylinder cubs.

I would love your guys advice and would be very interested to know what a trustworthy and knowledgeable local has to say on the subject.


Sites I've used / am using for research:

http://www.motorcyclephilippines.com - The Philippines have a massive cub -underbones- modding culture, over there it's not uncommon for people to buy a new Wave and spend half as much again on completely souping it up. To read the threads on this site you will likely need a Filipino/a friend to translate the Tagalog parts, although Taglish is often vaguely comprehendable to non-Tagalog speakers and some posters do post in English on there. I'm yet to ask a question of my own, yet I'm sure that if I did, then posters would reply in English.

http://www.bikervietnam.com/ - Completely in Vietnamese. Even with Vietnamese skills, I find forums in Vietnamese really quite a slog to gain an understanding, be prepared to have google translate, tratu and a Vietnamese friend at the ready. Not sure how well people would reply if one asked a question in English.

A guy in my town has modded his Nouvo to 160cc.... it's pretty mental by all accounts!
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CThomas



Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 380
Location: HCMC, Vietnam

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the basic bore out and carb tune for the Wave 110 that I just mentioned, ping me. It's a cheap way to rev up yer Wave. I'm impressed.

That said, a guy on HCMC expats on FB just posted a contact for Josh (American VK) at https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001848156415

It looks like they're doing the high-tech coolness.

138 Ky Con,
P Nguyen Thai Binh, Q1
TP HCM
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mark_in_saigon



Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837

PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:29 am    Post subject: just so we are all on the same page Reply with quote

the bore is the size of the piston, and the cylinder it fits in. You can increase it, but only up to a certain limit, you run out of metal in the cylinder. So the bore is part of your displacement, your engine size. The other part is the stroke. The stroke is how far up and down your piston travels. To stroke your engine, you change your crankshaft. I think you have to alter your head as well, to accommodate the increased travel. My brother told me, remember, and engine is a pump, the more air you pump, the more power of the engine. So the bigger the hole and the farther up and down the piston goes, the more air you are pumping.

The stroke length is determined by the cranks on the crankshaft. Stroke can also refer to the distance the piston travels. Bore is the diameter of the cylinder, which means that engine displacement is dependent on both the bore and the stroke of the cylinder.

That from wiki something. Again, these two factors should be somewhat in balance, you do not gain huge displacement simply by boring. You can bore to an extent, but if trying to maximize displacement (engine size), you do both. This is kind of a known among the race enthusiasts, my brothers were both racers, so I know a bit about this stuff. The problem with the VN mechanics is they are focused on getting you patched up, most of them are not mentally prepared to do things that are extra, for your desires. They want to fix what is broken, get your money and get you out. Our willingness to pay extra does not change their basic mentality, so it is important to find the right kind of guy for this job. There are a couple of westerners who do this stuff, and at least one VN place I know of, but the problem seems to be you go from the low VN prices of almost nothing to the stratospheric prices when using the foreigners or the ones who cater to the rich VN enthusiasts. Plus, the results do not always match the higher price. So CThomas' guy sounds pretty good at this point. Lets find out what he can do with a 100 or a 50 swap, what he can get maxed out to on an older honda, and see what the results are. I am pretty sure the 110 is just a 100 with a bigger cylinder.

Fuel injection is a more modern system than carbs, so should be better. Bad thing is, it is out of the realm of the guy who does this stuff on the sidewalk. It has a computer chip or something that controls it, you may or may not find anyone here who has the advanced knowledge, tools, manuals and parts to alter that system properly. The older bikes are simpler, and in my opinion, a lot better, in THIS ENVIRONMENT. A super cub or 67 can be fixed by almost anyone, and for very little. Not so with the newer stuff.
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CThomas



Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 380
Location: HCMC, Vietnam

PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good explanation, Mark. That's why he did 130 and not 150. A new cam/crank isn't needed... it seems. It's working well.
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mark_in_saigon



Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:44 pm    Post subject: I WANT it Reply with quote

Quote:
A new cam/crank isn't needed.


Well, if you are like me, you are no longer in the realm of NEED, and have moved over to WANT. This is the problem with most of the VN mechanics, they do not seem to understand the way we feel about our machines. My feeling is, I WANT (not need) MAXIMUM displacement. If I am gonna take a perfectly good engine and go for the hot rod effect, sacrificing gas mileage as well as a few other possible side effects, why not go for the max? It is still quite a bargain compared to what it costs to do this kind of thing is the west. If you are excited with a 125 or whatever it is now, imagine how you would feel with a 140 or whatever. Anyway, please send me the contact info on this gentleman, and I will see what he has to say about all this. Thanks mucho.
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CThomas



Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 380
Location: HCMC, Vietnam

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:36 pm    Post subject: Re: I WANT it Reply with quote

mark_in_saigon wrote:
Quote:
A new cam/crank isn't needed.


Well, if you are like me, you are no longer in the realm of NEED, and have moved over to WANT. This is the problem with most of the VN mechanics, they do not seem to understand the way we feel about our machines. My feeling is, I WANT (not need) MAXIMUM displacement. If I am gonna take a perfectly good engine and go for the hot rod effect, sacrificing gas mileage as well as a few other possible side effects, why not go for the max? It is still quite a bargain compared to what it costs to do this kind of thing is the west. If you are excited with a 125 or whatever it is now, imagine how you would feel with a 140 or whatever. Anyway, please send me the contact info on this gentleman, and I will see what he has to say about all this. Thanks mucho.


I'm saying the new cam isn't needed because we didn't bore it out to 150cc. I'm purring along with 130 now. Yes, it would be cool to take it to another level. I could, but I want to travel, so I'm leaving some metal to keep it cozy.

Let me talk to my wife today and tell her to call him about it (she's the translator in our family Smile ) If that's within his range of skills and tools, we'll move forward this coming Sunday. So, you want to switch out your cub (originally a 50 or a 100? to a stock 110 (from a Wave) and bore it out to 140 or 150? It'll take some time and organizing. I'll ping you later this week about what he says.
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mark_in_saigon



Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:12 am    Post subject: thanks for your help Reply with quote

what I am trying to do is just maximize displacement on both of them. The cub is still a 50 so it will need the entire swap, most folks swap from a 50 to a 100 on those, but I would go for the 110 cylinder to begin with on that, which we would bore to get to the 125cc or whatever it is. Then, assuming the guy has the ability to do so, we would also stroke it to get to maximum displacement. The bore would be the same as yours, just the stroke would be increased to reach maximum displacement. (Maybe 140 cc's?).

Same deal on the 67 honda, which is currently a 97 (100) cc engine. Of course, we will rarely be running at WOT (wide open throttle) with this kind of set up. It is just nice to have it for those special moments in life.
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CThomas



Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 380
Location: HCMC, Vietnam

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:01 pm    Post subject: Re: thanks for your help Reply with quote

mark_in_saigon wrote:
It is just nice to have it for those special moments in life.


News: He can bore out your C50 to a 100 and beef it up on top of that. Noticeably. Not install a W110: you can only put some Wave 110 parts on a Cub. Otherwise it's too complex (e.g. re-engineering your frame, etc. A lot of money.) This way you maximize your standard gear, guaranteed for 3.5 - 4M VND.

JB: Your bike probably performs as well as mine. Maybe? I'm thinking that all you can do (if you want to do it reasonably) is switch out to a carb and go from there. I think we should race and see which config comes out on top. I'm as curious as you are: I had a kid on a modded Wave out-accelerate me today and I'm wondering how the hell he did it. You might have to invalidate that warranty, though Wink
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Jbhughes



Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 254

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CThomas wrote:
JB: Your bike probably performs as well as mine. Maybe? I'm thinking that all you can do (if you want to do it reasonably) is switch out to a carb and go from there. I think we should race and see which config comes out on top. I'm as curious as you are: I had a kid on a modded Wave out-accelerate me today and I'm wondering how the hell he did it. You might have to invalidate that warranty, though Wink


Honestly, I think your Wave will be faster than mine. When I first got the bike, I was quite happy with the performance upgrade compared to the 110cc Wave I rented before, but as I've driven it more and compared it to other bikes (also looked at the 125cc bikes Hondas in the Philippines - http://www.hondaph.com/view/motorcycles ), I've kinda been disappointed at times.

On the longer journeys on QL1 and other such roads it's been good, the fuel consumption has seemed ok and the only things that will go past me are the faster buses and the odd minibus (although with a few bends and traffic lights, I'm able to compete with minibuses quite well). I've come up against Exciters on windier roads like the stretch between Gia Nghia and Buon Ma Thuot and found that I've been able to keep ahead, but I think that is often due to being gung-ho and taking more risks than the other driver is prepared to (not something I'm proud of) or perhaps they haven't really been trying to get ahead.

The main problem is starting off the lights or just driving around town. I don't race other drivers like the redheads that Mark mentioned, but there are often little moments where I gun it with someone else for a while, and I almost always come out 2nd best to Yamaha Siriuses or Jupiters, of course Exciters, often Nouvos too. I've heard that it's quite easy to make a cheap adjustment on Siruises and get quite a performance increase though.
A lot of this is related the acceleration at lower revs, especially in 2nd gear. I can totally 'red line' 1st gear up to almost 40 before changing to 2nd and still the bike will be sluggish for another 5km/h or so.

Also, top speed. I've not got to 110 yet, and while [I don't really think this is a particular problem , as I rarely ever feel the need to go over 85 anyway - but it seems odd how little acceleration I get over 90 or so and that the apparent top speed is a little over a 100.


Perhaps I expect too much from a little 1 cylinder 125cc, but I really would like better acceleration between 0-15, 35-45 and 80-90 and perhaps be able to see 120 on a deserted straight road once in a blue moon.

As for changing out the fuel injection CThomas, I just couldn't bring myself to do it. It cost me 4 million or so extra for that version of the bike for one thing Sad and I think that the reported lower emissions could be required if I moved it back home (UK, perhaps Europe).

I'll report back if I make any changes.
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