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Wave 110 convert to a 130. Fast as hell.
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JSutt



Joined: 22 Jan 2013
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was an excellent and very informative discussion. Thanks especially Mark for giving some excellent advice.

I'm dragging it up out of the graveyard to say that I'm getting some work done on my Honda CD50 here in Danang. Dropped it off today to the Honda '67 Guy (Ho Nginh St, next to Family restaurant). He's rebuilding the engine from 70cc to 110cc, upgrading the suspension and putting a new seat on it so my wife can come along for a ride - quoted price: 2 million dong. 1.5 for the engine rebuild alone. Also got a front disc brake quoted at 3 million D and an electric starter quoted at the same price - but given that I bought it for 6 mil, that's a bit much for now.

I rode another bike, a 67, that he'd just finished upgrading to 110cc and man that thing hauled ass. Much faster than my Wave RSX at the same engine size. As far as I know he's the main guy to go to here, quotes reasonable prices and the local guys rate him. He speaks thoroughly decent English too, which is helpful.

I'll pick up the CD50 in 2 weeks and let you all know how it goes.
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mark_in_saigon



Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 758

PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for adding that info. I did not post my result on my Cub. I used this Vespa guy to rebuild my 67, was happy with it, so had him do my Cub also. He is likely the best known and most well respected shop in VN, also likely the most expensive. He ships bikes all over the world.

I really hate to complain about people when they try to do a good job. Let me start off by saying: any time you use a VN to do this work, you have to understand you are getting two things. Very cheap labor, and the VN culture. A VN CAN be trained properly and perform to western standards, but it is harder to achieve over here, as everything that surrounds them is the VN system.

Every single shop I have ever used in VN has at least some VN working in it (obviously), including the two well known foreign owned ones here. Every single shop also messes things up because of the VN processes. They forget to do parts of the job, they shortcut the job, they lie about what they actually did or did not do. They get tired of the job and push it out without testing it or completing it. They decide it is going to take more time than they want to charge for, they have been trained that every customer wants his bike finished as cheaply and as quickly as possible, if it is running it is fixed.

Motorbikes are a very big part of my life. I love them, I take very good care of them, I study them, I am very patient with the mechanics, I pay them extra, I tell them I want to fix things properly, and am not trying to get the job done the inexpensive way. I bring my partner to explain everything, we discuss it all in great detail in advance. None of this matters. The VN system overcomes all that.

The last place I used a couple of months ago (again, likely the most famous and expensive in VN, western owned and managed but with VN workers) is probably the best I have found. They did a great job on the rebuild on the 67, it runs really good. Is it truly 110? He says it is. We did the same rebuild on the Cub and it did not run nearly as fast. Brought it back to him, had him drive both bikes, then he agreed, it did not run as fast as it should have. Now this guy charges about 300 bucks to do these, and he sends them across the ocean where you cannot drive two of his jobs into his place and ask him to test them. In other words, for 300 bucks, you would think he would have tested it and gotten it right. But there was a pretty good list of things that were overlooked, some of them totally blatant mistakes due to his VN workers. His face turned red when I showed him the sloppiest one, they had stripped the threads on a bolt, and instead of putting in the heli arc thingy, they wrapped some wire around the end of it and pushed it in so it would look like it was holding. Well, he did his best to get the stuff right, but I would not be at all surprised to see that the Cub is NOT truly a 110. It does not run like one (the 67 does), and he had enough other mistakes on the process that I lost faith in truly believing what he said. He may be the best in VN, but the best in VN is not that great. I like the guy and would love to say nothing but good. I will say, considering his work compared to everything else here in VN, he is first rate. In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

There is another western guy doing them - Mac is his name. I have not tried him yet, will likely try him next. Hope springs eternal.

There is also a Brit who is doing this stuff who advertises a lot on CL. He had a VN guy rebuild both of mine with very poor results a couple of years ago, then he said it was my fault for abusing the bikes. Maybe he is doing better now, don't know, but I have zero faith in him. I have heard from another westerner that those rebuilds (from the Brit) often end up being taken somewhere else and done again. Again, he may know plenty about bikes, but the VN workers overcome his knowledge. He actually subbed mine out and it was a total disaster, but if he does them in his own shop (which was my hope and expectation), maybe they are done properly. After doing my best to get him to do his best, I would not use him again or recommend him.

If you go back thru the archives, you will see the detail on the problem with the 50cc bikes. In order to get to 100 or more, they must be stroked as well as bored. 98% of the people doing this lie about it. The VN are not qualified to stroke, they do not understand it, have the parts for it, not sure what their problem is, but they do not do it. However, a VN mechanic will rarely turn down work by saying he does not know how. Hurts his pride. Look at the original post on this thread, Carey was saying his wife's cousin or someone was making the engine 140cc. Then when we delved much deeper into it, the guy finally admitted he was saying he would make it "run like a 140cc". If this guy was not his wife's cousin or whatever he was, he would have not gotten that truth (finally). So, unless you sit there and take the measurements on your bike as it is being rebuilt, assume that no matter who it is, how well they are known and how much they charge, the 110cc figure they quote is likely incorrect.

As we also pointed out, it would be much better to swap a true 110 from a newer Honda, except for the issue of the VIN, which then puts the bike at risk for being considered stolen. Getting the legal permission for this is theoretically possible but no one has ever heard of it getting done in real life. You have to red stamp your red stamp and then take it to Ha Noi and wait 14 years.

I used to bait these guys who advertise 110 cc bikes for sale. I would tell them that was exactly what I wanted, and if they would let me take it to a mechanic and check the cc, I would buy it at their asking price the moment it checked out as a real 110. I would pay for the test. The responses were either :uhh, well, the guy I bought it from TOLD me it was a 110, or: no response. NO ONE is certain they have a 110, and almost no one truly does.

So, they overbore these 50's, which on the light frame runs great. However, as noted in the archives, they do not last long. The compression is too high, so things break rather quickly. Stroking results in a balanced engine. Overboring results in a race engine, good for the next few races, then plan on rebuilding it.

I love my old classic Hondas, they are truly the best motorbikes ever produced. The 67 could even be considered a better bike than the Cub. However, no one can manage the clutch, they do not know which parts to use, they do not have the experience or take the time to tune it as needed, they put in the wrong springs. Was a great system in its day, and still is, but there are not enough of these things running for there to be dedicated mechanics to these models, so they get the wrong springs, cheap cables that stretch and eventually break, the original parts required for proper adjustment get taken off, every owner has to be a 67 clutch specialist to keep this thing going right.

If you take a 67 and retrofit disk brakes, gear indicator light, halogen headlight, electric start and rebuild to a true 110, fix all the stuff that has been neglected over the years, you may have upgraded your way to the world's best bike. But it is not worth the hassle. The cost does not bother me, but of course it is cheaper just to get some chain driven Honda anything with 4 speed semi automatic and you have most of the features that made the Cub the best bike ever built (at the factory). Better to let the Japanese do this stuff right at the factory than to try to get the VN to figure out how to modify these machines. They are just not sophisticated enough to do this properly, and it is mostly a recipe for frustration.

JSutt, see if you can do this. Tell the guy you want to come down and take a measurement of your engine before he puts the head on. Take a ruler, turn the engine to the bottom of its cycle (where the piston is all the way at the bottom), then take a picture of the ruler, see how far down that piston goes in other words. Then take your ruler and measure across the cylinder, see what the diameter is. These figures will give you the true displacement (cc's). Tell the guy you will give him an extra 10 bucks for his time and letting you interrupt the deal. If he allows it, you may have reached the promised land. If he finds a way to forget your request, then you are in the same boat as the other 98% of these guys who claim to have a 50cc rebuilt to a 110cc. My guess is he is just overboring. Yeah, they haul total ass that way, but they do not last long. A 50 cc both bored AND stroked should cost a lot more than 75 bucks. That is the price for boring, not boring AND stroking. His price for the disk brakes is a bit less than HCMC, they want at least 4 million here, so he is like 75% of the city price on that and charging about 25% of what a true 110 cc bore and stroke will cost by the only people who may actually be able to do it - westerners. And you do not get to 110cc just by boring, you could max out at about 85 or so, would be super fast, very high compression, and would last a couple of months at best. If you can get pictures of the rulers proving his work, I may have some bikes to start sending up there. I do not want to be negative or cynical, but everything I have learned shows me this 110 is like a legend, everyone talks about it but no one has actually seen one.

Your mileage may vary.
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JSutt



Joined: 22 Jan 2013
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, sounds like a good idea! I think that he is in fact going to rebuild the engine using parts from newer Hondas - that's what he told me he did with the other guy's bike, not just boring it out. As for legality, that's not such a big concern - I don't have my name on the blue card, so if the police want to confiscate it they'll confiscate it anyway. I don't know what it's like in the bigger cities but I'd say that's the case for 95% of foreigners here also.

However, I'm not sure whether he is in fact rebuilding the whole engine or just boring, stroking & replacing parts. I'll go down and have a chat and let you know.
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mark_in_saigon



Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 758

PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If legality is not a concern, would likely make more sense to use a donor engine that started off as a 110. Anyone can bore a 50, if they want to go for top performance (without stroking or a donor engine), they overbore, which gives you a very short lifespan. Almost no one here can stroke. But if you get a donor engine, it was built that way, much better way to go, except the VIN does not match up.

For the price you noted, it would be very unlikely that he was stroking it also, that is much more technical than boring, and your price was pretty close to the price for a proper VN style rebuild with a bigger cylinder.

Yeah, I agree, at this time, the foreigners have Kings X on Mickey Mouse traffic issues, though if you do something truly crazy, they will mess with you. Down here, they leave us alone when they are pulling over their own people for "driving a bit over the line", or whatever they say it is.
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TRH



Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 178
Location: HCMC

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:51 am    Post subject: Questions on crankshaft Reply with quote

I am curious about a few things about stroking as well as boring one of these engines. Is it necessary to bore the crankshaft race to accommodate the new crankshaft? Also is it necessary to install a different cam for the valves? To truly balance the engine, isn't it necessary to increase the aspiration?
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mark_in_saigon



Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 758

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aspiration refers to how the engine gets its air, how it breathes. Forced induction of air comes from turbocharging or supercharging. Rare on a motorbike, but not unheard of. Some very fast, very expensive motorcycles now come that way from the factory, but anything like that is totally ridiculous here. We see some big expensive bikes on the street now, but it is like killing mosquitoes with a flamethrower. You can do it, but how sensible is it?

The balance issue is about the bore and stroke being more or less in proportion. Guys who bore the crap out of a 50 end up with an unbalanced engine, compression too high, hard to kick start, breaks up too quickly.

http://www.eaglerod.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=25

There is a discussion on stroking an SBC. Shows you some of the complications involved. The VN are not qualified to do this stuff, there may be one somewhere, but he almost certainly trained in a western environment to learn this stuff. So, the engines usually do not get stroked here. I personally do not know all the changes and modifications to accomplish it on a 50. I know that the guys who say they have turned their 50's into 100s or 110s are mostly wrong, because no one over here does it, expect possibly Saigon Scooter Centre, maybe a few others. I would not trust the Brit who claims he can, though if he quit subbing out to VN maybe he is doing it. I would not trust any VN to do it without going down and taking a picture of the bore and stroke with my own little ruler hanging out of the engine.

Bottom line for us, it is mostly a dream. The only way to possibly accomplish it is to pay a first rate western mechanic to do it, about 325 bucks to rebuild including the stroking. That is on a single cylinder Honda. The VN are almost surely bs ing us if they say they can.
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TRH



Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 178
Location: HCMC

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My question on the top half was based on the fact that by doubling the cc's you also double the air throughput. I am sure, Mark, you will agree that engine design is as much about movement of air as it is about movement of metal. I didn't so much mean supercharging or other means of increasing air but perhaps increasing valve bore or clearance. Is the head on the 110cc engine on a Wave significantly different than the head on a 50cc Cub?
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mark_in_saigon



Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 758

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can sure enough bolt up a 110 cc cylinder and head to a 50cc Honda, they did it on mine, and of course the valves are different as well as the piston. First time was without stroking, it ran fast for about a month, then broke up. I was so excited with the speed on the 67 that I immediately did the same thing on the Cub, which also broke up at about the same schedule. So the balance is the key, dramatic increase in bore without similar increase in stroke equals race engine equals very short life.

If you theoretically double the cc BY STROKING AS WELL AS BORING (which I am not absolutely certain is getting done even with the most expensive and experienced mechanic in VN, though he says it is) then you are fine on your balance, and you just need more flow in and out, which is accomplished with a bigger carb. I think the manifold is bigger too, they change the orientation of the carb when they do it. Of course the exhaust ports will be automatically larger with the new components, so your air flow should be fine. You do want to get away from the old air cleaner inside the battery box on the 67 and in the frame on the Cub. As a side note, the second tier westerners who worked on these bikes left years old air cleaners in the bikes, or removed them completely, no air cleaner. They figured if the customer could not see it, it was not important. The very old one on the Cub was breaking into pieces and being sucked into the engine. This had been ignored by both of these western mechanics who specialize in old Hondas (not SSC). SSC is the only shop I have found that proactively tries to address all these issues. They are not perfect, but they are the best I have found over here.

Yeah, the head is different, but when you say Cub, actually, depends on the Cub. But we are talking the old 50cc Cubs, which are not hot rods, they are pretty smallish engines, I think lawnmowers may have about the same power. But eventually some of the Cubs came with larger engines, They even made a 110cc Cub for the Japanese market, but do not know if that made it to VN or not. I am rather sure the 100cc did. Some of the 67 types also came with 90ccs in some places. I am thinking that any factory 90cc 67s are very rare over here. You get one of those it is great, because you have your larger engine built properly from the factory, if you can find one. I had one back in the states once about 30 years ago, it was a lot of fun, loved it to death. It had a trail 90 engine and transmission, and you could pull wheelies on it till the end of time, once you got it up, it was just a balancing act.

Yup, my brother the true hot rodder explained it to me like this. An engine is a pump. The more air you pump, the more power you have. So you pump more with displacement (bore and stroke), and you also can pump more with forced induction (turbocharging or supercharging). Never had one of those, but have driven a few of their race cars over the years. The first time was over 40 years ago, still remember it like it was yesterday. No need for that level of performance on these so called streets, but it is nice to have our scooters running properly.
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mark_in_saigon



Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 758

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:30 pm    Post subject: SOME NEW MODS ON THE 67 Reply with quote

I have been using Saigon Scooter Centre, who specializes in Vespas. He is very serious about his work, and has enough general knowledge that his ability to do proper work on a Honda seems to be better than anyone else here in HCMC. There are one or two other guys who are western and doing this now, they may be okay. The Brit (I think he is in 9, he advertises on CL) who has been doing it a long time lost my confidence a couple of years ago, so I am mostly staying with SSC at this time. Recently SSC did a front disk brake on my 67. Everyone says you have to change forks, they were able to do it with a different bracket, Pat said it was better to keep the original Japanese fork. Worked great, lower cost, so again he proved he can do stuff others cannot.

Recently, he also was able to find and install a 5 speed on the 67. Almost everyone will tell you it cannot be done. It can, it was, it is so fine, words fail me. Solved my constant clutch adjustment problems too, and a never ending problem with being able to shift into neutral when idling in first.

One thing he did not get done for me was setting up a halogen light on the bike. He probably could if he investigated it enough, but as he did that big stuff, I was quite pleased. My long term VN guy (who cannot do this highly unusual work like stroking and the 5 speed retrofit) WAS able to install a halogen on the 67. It has been going for a while now, it is about 10 times brighter than the original light, (maybe more, I hate to exaggerate, but it is an amazing difference). There is a lot to mess with, but it looks original and is an incredible upgrade, about 100 bucks by the time you upgrade your battery and charging system. One negative, at this time, the horn does not do much when the lights are on, and he does not have a solution for that. Other than that, it is working fine.

One of the newer western guys who does 67's has a $250 minimum. I would like to try him eventually, need to have a bigger job. If anyone has used him, do let us know the results. I am saying at this time that Saigon Scooter Centre seems to be the best mechanic in HCMC for larger technical upgrades on older Hondas, at least that is my opinion based on my 5 years of messing with this stuff.
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Okie from Muskogee



Joined: 31 Jan 2014
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see lots of old vietnamese folks riding them old honda's in the boonies. I ask them how much one them things cost, but they always say them are not for sale. I want to get me one of them things in mint condition with original everything with no stroking or boring, but just as it was in 1960's. How much would it be? Where can I get me one of them?
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TRH



Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 178
Location: HCMC

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okie from Muskogee wrote:
I see lots of old vietnamese folks riding them old honda's in the boonies. I ask them how much one them things cost, but they always say them are not for sale. I want to get me one of them things in mint condition with original everything with no stroking or boring, but just as it was in 1960's. How much would it be? Where can I get me one of them?
Try this place. https://www.facebook.com/TheHondaCubExchange It looks like they can be had for about $500US. I have been told that you can still buy a new one at a Honda dealership but they won't have it on the showroom floor. It is a special order situation and will cost about $1200.

I want one too but my wife won't let me. Sad
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