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Idrinkwaytoomuchcoffee
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
Posts: 19
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 Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:04 pm Post subject: Blacklists ! |
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Does anyone know how I can find out from within China which schools are blacklisted. The TEFL blacklist sites are blacklisted here..I've a funny feeling that I might be working in one of them now. When my boss flashes one of her insincere smiles at me, I swear I can see the devil.
I'm currently plotting my escape plan but I don't want to jump out of the wok into the fire. |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| I would say you either know or you don't know if you're working in a crap school. If you are then either try to negotiate a better arrangement or just leave and move on. as for blacklists, they are highly unreliable - with respect to both teachers and schools. |
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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 4946
Location: Blabbing
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| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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I disagree with the notion that blacklists are unreliable especially if they come with specific warnings and not general statements that denounce a school for ambiguous reasons.
A blacklist that has confirmed problems and multiple people complaining does send a warning signal, in my opinion.
You could ask about a certain school; some of us can do the search for you if you are behind the wall.
Good luck. |
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roadwalker
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1750
Location: Ch
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| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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I received an insincere smile once. I nearly pulled a runner, but in the end decided to stay. It worked out in the end: most of the smiles I received after that were genuine.
Uh...anything else that might be as bad? Do they pay on time? Were they able to get you the proper documents to live and work in China? Is your housing livable? Classes not too big? Hours not too many? Etc. etc.
Most schools have some issues that we have to deal with. A boss that appears insincere is something to be leery of, but only that. We don't have to be best buddies either, as long as the working relationship works. |
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Idrinkwaytoomuchcoffee
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for your replies..
It's a long story how I ended up at this school. I was in China already on a tourist visa and a dodgy agent sent me to this school after I applied for a completely different job. But here I am with very little money and they new my financial situation from the start. First of all they said they wouldn't offer me a contract and told me to leave, then they changed their mind. They said the only condition that they would give me a contract was that I had to sign on my contract that I would pay them 20,000rmb if I wanted to leave early. I wasn't in a financial position to argue with them. They made me feel very small.
And on top of that they only gave me an F-visa, which I now know makes my contract a load of BS, it's a real limbo situation at the moment. I think the only thing that is stopping them from giving me the boot is that my lessons are pretty good and all the students are happy with me. My classes get observed regularly, the observers sit there with their poker faces while I get on with the class.
As soon as I've got a bit of money saved up I'll feel happier.
My visa runs out in December so I'll see what happens before that. |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Idrinkwaytoomuchcoffee wrote: |
| Does anyone know how I can find out from within China which schools are blacklisted. The TEFL blacklist sites are blacklisted here. |
The sites themselves are not blacklisted. blogspot.com is blocked in China and some of these blacklists are sub-domains of that. You can read all of them if you have a VPN.
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| I disagree with the notion that blacklists are unreliable especially if they come with specific warnings and not general statements that denounce a school for ambiguous reasons. |
The problem is most of them don't come with specific warnings and many of the postings denouncing schools ARE ambiguous and unverifiable. And most people who post never tell the whole story.
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| A blacklist that has confirmed problems and multiple people complaining does send a warning signal, in my opinion. |
On the internet "multiple people" has a very different meaning than it does in the real world. One individual can easily post warnings under ten different names. Don't tell me it doesn't happen.
I've taken the time to review a number of these "blacklists." Here are a few of the (major) problems I see:
1. Control of information. Whoever administers an online blacklist has control over any and all information on the site. Some of these sites enable comment moderation which means the admin decide what gets posted and what doesn't. Any school that finds their name on one of these blacklists will find it difficult or impossible to defend themselves. I went to one blacklist, the first result returned in a Google search for China ESL Blacklist so it's one that many people probably use in their search. I read a number of comments there and here's one from a DOS inquiring why his school was on the list:
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| I'm currently employed as DoS for English First *****. I've been here for 2 and a half years now, my first year as an English teacher. As a DoS a lot of my time is spent with recruitment and as you can probably understand this can be difficult when the school is on a blacklist. I've had a look at the black list on your website and it doesn't give any reasons for the schools being listed. Why? |
A followup post by the same DOS:
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| With regards to my previous post I wish to inform you that your source from which you originally blacklisted our school is by no means credible. During a teacher's meeting I asked our current teachers, if they so wished, to post their own experiences and opinions on the website about working here. Many tried but none succeeded! From the 5 people who did try to post something there isn't a single one on the website now. This was well over a month ago. Either the website no longer has an administrator or they are not willing to post positive comments. The original post from the anonymous teacher was written almost 4 years ago. Will this school always be associated with the blacklist now, no matter what we try to do? Try typing our school's name along with blacklist into a popular search engine and see which page comes up second. |
After following the back and forth between the DOS and the site admin it appears that this EF branch was not on this particular blacklist because of what anyone posted on THAT site. Instead the site administrator found an article on ANOTHER website written by an alleged ex-employee from EF ***** and just decided to blacklist the school on his site as well. The listing was (finally) removed but only after it had been up for a lengthy period of time. Pretty sloppy work no matter how you slice it.
2. Anonymous comments. Here's a comment by someone who wanted to blacklist a school:
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| Anonymous said... There is a school in Zibo City China that we want to put on the blacklist.Yhe schools name is Global Language School.They have not lived up to there part of the contract and all the foregin teachers are getting very mad.So we want to warn other people of this school. |
The site that posted this is riddled with similar crap.
3. Dated/inaccurate information. Some posts on blacklists I've looked at are from the early and middle part of the last decade. Situations and personnel at schools are fluid and change almost on a daily basis. Yet once on the internet a blacklisting may be there forever.
4. Poorly Devised Rating System. I looked at one site that publishes school reviews and rates them from * to *****. I noted one school received a 0.5* rating based on one single review. In fact there were many ratings on different schools based on one single review. This is only one person's opinion and probably isn't indicative of the conditions at the school. The teacher who posted the review leading to a low rating may even have been fired for cause. We don't know. In any case, a rating system like this should only pump out a number after a minimum number of reviews have been posted (1 is not enough).
So yes, many, if not all, of these blacklists are unreliable because there's almost no way to confirm what's true and what isn't. I can imagine the outrage of some on this forum if there was an equally shoddy and well-publicized blacklist publishing the names of foreign teachers in China for all to see.
The best way for potential ESL teachers to get the info they need on a school is to do their homework by communicating with people who have already worked there, visit the place if possible, and ask the right questions of management. This site we're on right now can be a decent resource because unlike some blacklists, there is real activity here and much of the info is current. In the end, doing any of the aforementioned doesn't eliminate all the risk but it's the best you can do and it's better than consulting blacklists put together by people who have their own hidden agenda. |
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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 4946
Location: Blabbing
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:30 am Post subject: |
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I think we are all big enough to determine which complaints are pouty feet stomping and which are valid warnings.
If a poster gives specific information and offers a personal testimonial about being contractually violated and/or abused and this is backed up with names/dates, etc. and a contact number to speak with the teacher in question... I tend to believe it.
I very much doubt someone would go through so much trouble buying multiple phone cards and mobile phones and e-mail addresses and fake names just to mess with one school that didn't let them go to class drunk.
That's all I have to say; I support the protection of teachers. |
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rogerwilco
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
Posts: 1549
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| Idrinkwaytoomuchcoffee wrote: |
| But here I am with very little money and they new my financial situation from the start. |
Why would you tell a school that you have very little money ?
Why would you make yourself vulnerable to people that might take advantage of you ? |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:25 am Post subject: |
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If all the information GWOW mentioned was provided on a blacklist site, I would agree. All too frequently, however, the posts made are from some semi-psycho, rightfully terminated, with an axe to grind, and I agree with 7969 regarding the weaknesses of these sites.
It's all well and good to say that you are concerned with the welfare of FTs, but this cuts both ways. A poorly-structured blacklist may save some FTs from harm by alerting them to a shoddy outfit, but it may also harm them by denying them an opportunity to work at a decent outfit that has been unfairly blacklisted.
Just in the last year alone, two ex-teachers from my school have been posting warnings about how bad it is there. I know them both, and they have more than one loose screw. I wasn't surprised that they were let go, and I could see it coming from a mile away. If one were to read their posts, they would certainly think that my place was a terrible school to work at and that my boss was really bad. That's just not true at all. The hyperbole they exhibit in their posts may be picked up as hogwash by some, but others would probably want to err on the side of safety and give it a pass without further research. A blacklist site that contains unsubstantiated allegations is damaging to us, as it makes it hard to discern valid complaints from invalid ones.
RED |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| I think we are all big enough to determine which complaints are pouty feet stomping and which are valid warnings. |
Those who have been in this business long enough can usually determine what's valid and what's not because most of us already been through the good and the bad. People new to ESL don't have the benefit of experience and therefore are prone to believe what they read.
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| If a poster gives specific information and offers a personal testimonial about being contractually violated and/or abused and this is backed up with names/dates, etc. and a contact number to speak with the teacher in question... I tend to believe it. |
I'm willing to check out and support any site that REQUIRES people blacklisting schools to provide valid reasons AND any info so that they can be contacted directly. But I haven't found one yet and it's not hard to understand why people won't put real names, email addresses and phone numbers online. I know I won't do it.
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| That's all I have to say; I support the protection of teachers. |
I support the protection of teachers AND schools. But only those teachers with legitimate gripes against shady schools (and good schools with legitimate gripes against worthless employees). What we shouldn't support are teachers who want schools blacklisted for vaguely worded reasons, and/or those teachers busy staging a vendetta against a former employer. Unfortunately there seems to be far more of the latter out there. |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:53 am Post subject: |
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As well, schools should also be given a fair opportunity to post and defend themselves. The tone and style they employ also gives a good indication of what kind of people they are. Simply allowing one side of a story to be heard benefits nobody.
RED |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| Lobster wrote: |
| As well, schools should also be given a fair opportunity to post and defend themselves. The tone and style they employ also gives a good indication of what kind of people they are. Simply allowing one side of a story to be heard benefits nobody. |
From what I've seen these blacklist sites are often obscure and most schools probably don't know about them or if they do they don't have time to check them out. But I have a feeling if they were told someone posted about them they'd be keen to have a look.
The only way this could work though would be for the site admin to contact the school whenever a posting was made blacklisting that school. This would allow them to respond. But I wonder how many people would try to blacklist their school if they knew their former employer, colleagues, and friends were going to read and potentially respond to what they've written about their former workplace and perhaps some of the people working there? Esp. if they weren't being completely honest. |
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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| On the internet "multiple people" has a very different meaning than it does in the real world. One individual can easily post warnings under ten different names. Don't tell me it doesn't happen. |
I agree.
| Quote: |
| All too frequently, however, the posts made are from some semi-psycho, rightfully terminated, with an axe to grind, and I agree with 7969 regarding the weaknesses of these sites. |
x2
There's a well-known site out there whose 3 or 4 long-time members repeatedly slam any and all schools, language mills, recruitment agencies, etc. whenever anyone comes on and condemns them publicly. I'm sure many know of this site. Anyone (whether it be a current teacher, past teacher, manager, administrator) that dares to post a rebuttal and defend the school gets name-called and dragged through the mud. There's a fellow out there that STILL comes on that website and many others (and he has a legion of 'net names) that blasts the school where I work . . . and he's been gone for more than two years now (after working there for only about 10 whole weeks)! Maybe some of you long-timers here at Dave's "know" him.  |
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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 4946
Location: Blabbing
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| So it sounds to me as though if a school abuses a teacher, don't bother warning others about it? Is this the trend we are all hoping for? |
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dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| So it sounds to me as though if a school abuses a teacher, don't bother warning others about it? Is this the trend we are all hoping for? |
No, I think the point is that blacklists are not reliable (and some may have significant bias or flaws). Researching your school and stumbling on a blacklist with posts that condemn the place (especially only a dramatic one or two) and giving it a miss is about as smart as finding the school's own website, seeing some kind of testimonial from a teacher, and trusting that.
I am somewhere in the middle on this whole thing. I wouldn't trust the random anonymous complaints much more than I would trust someone posting that the school is great. It seems to me that any sensible person would try to get some general information from anywhere about conditions etc. and use it to formulate some decent questions you can ask someone from the school you are doing an interview with, and a teacher or two you have been put into contact with. I would be looking out for trends, and information that is posted over time. The more posts the better, and I would be looking for information on different sites, the nature of complaints, and the style of writing (for clues as to if it's a one man crusade or not). I still wouldn't trust it, but the more I could triangulate from differing sources, the better. But I would still be using it to build my own idea of a place to prepare for an interview (and my chance to ask some questions).
So it that sense, a blacklist can remind you to ask about and dig deeper about certain aspects of the school before saying yes. The problem is they can also turn you into someone who might give a good place a miss, or start an interview with 150 targeted questions about the expected condition of bedding on arrival (tuck or no tuck?) and the general ambiance in the hallway between classes. |
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