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Will getting permanent residency get harder from 2012?
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OneJoelFifty



Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 463

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with G, let's wait until people start being denied 5-year extensions all over the place before we get alarmed about it.
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G Cthulhu



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1321
Location: Way, way off course.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rooster_2006 wrote:
Inflames wrote:
Immigration, at least in Osaka, tends to base the length of one's renewal off of income, employer, and length of time in Japan. I know of some people who came to Japan with 3 year visas.
Here in Yokkaichi (which is part of the Nagoya network of immigration offices), many JETs come on a three-year visa, but after living here for three years and going in for a renewal, they get kicked back to one-year renewals. I'm not sure about other places in Japan, but in Yokkaichi, even a three-year extension is a rare, precious thing. So I am doubting that five-year extensions will be widely available.

Quote:
I highly doubt immigration will start enforcing this rule on the first day.
They may not start enforcing it on the first day, but that is little consolation for those of us applying significantly after the first day when they do start enforcing it.



So all you're really saying is, "My local office sucks"?
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Inflames



Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 416

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will say that YMMV with visa extensions. I have one friend who was making 180,000 a month and got his first 3 year extension (this person had also changed jobs every year). I have another friend who, for his 4th renewal (so 5 years in Japan) finally got a 3 year visa.

It might also be that the visa office in Yokkaichi is stingy or that none of the people there make enough money to satisfy the staff. My boss told me last year people who were making above 300,000 tended to get 3 year visas but people with less tended to get 1 year visas.
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Rooster_2006



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G Cthulhu wrote:
Rooster_2006 wrote:
Inflames wrote:
Immigration, at least in Osaka, tends to base the length of one's renewal off of income, employer, and length of time in Japan. I know of some people who came to Japan with 3 year visas.
Here in Yokkaichi (which is part of the Nagoya network of immigration offices), many JETs come on a three-year visa, but after living here for three years and going in for a renewal, they get kicked back to one-year renewals. I'm not sure about other places in Japan, but in Yokkaichi, even a three-year extension is a rare, precious thing. So I am doubting that five-year extensions will be widely available.

Quote:
I highly doubt immigration will start enforcing this rule on the first day.
They may not start enforcing it on the first day, but that is little consolation for those of us applying significantly after the first day when they do start enforcing it.



So all you're really saying is, "My local office sucks"?
"What [I'm] really saying" is that until we know for sure that these five-year extensions are really available to the common English teacher, not just for the elite top 1% of foreign professionals with PhDs and incomes over 500,000 yen a month, there is cause for worry here.

Take you, G Cthulhu -- you have lived in Japan for seven years. That means you can apply for eijuuken in three years, right?

Oh, but wait -- you don't have a five-year period of stay yet (a prerequisite for applying for eijuuken starting in July).

Hope you get one on your next renewal! Because if you don't, you won't be able to apply for eijuuken at the ten-year mark as you could have done previously. You'll have to wait until the immigration office decides that you "deserve" a five-year extension. When will that be? A year from now? 10 years from now? Never? You just don't know.

See, now, how this could be really anxiety-inducing?
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steki47



Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 680
Location: BFE Inaka

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rooster_2006 wrote:
but in Yokkaichi, even a three-year extension is a rare, precious thing.


Must say, this has not been my experience with Yokkaichi immigration. I came to Japan with a one-year work visa from Nova and both renewals gave me three-year visas.

In Gifu, after getting married, immigration told me that I would probably get a one-year spouse visa at first and processing would take up to one month. It took FOUR DAYS to get my three-year spouse visa.

All three of my interactions with immigration have been amazingly smooth and quick.
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Rooster_2006



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steki47 wrote:
Rooster_2006 wrote:
but in Yokkaichi, even a three-year extension is a rare, precious thing.


Must say, this has not been my experience with Yokkaichi immigration. I came to Japan with a one-year work visa from Nova and both renewals gave me three-year visas.

In Gifu, after getting married, immigration told me that I would probably get a one-year spouse visa at first and processing would take up to one month. It took FOUR DAYS to get my three-year spouse visa.

All three of my interactions with immigration have been amazingly smooth and quick.
Were you applying at the immigration office near the harbor? The one with a bridge right before it?
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steki47



Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 680
Location: BFE Inaka

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rooster_2006 wrote:
Were you applying at the immigration office near the harbor? The one with a bridge right before it?


Yes, that one. Bit of a walk from a small train station. 2004 and 2007 (three months before Nova died-great timing!).

Does that make a difference?
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Rooster_2006



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steki47 wrote:
Rooster_2006 wrote:
Were you applying at the immigration office near the harbor? The one with a bridge right before it?


Yes, that one. Bit of a walk from a small train station. 2004 and 2007 (three months before Nova died-great timing!).

Does that make a difference?
Yeah, that's the one I applied at, too.

I'm trying to figure out why they gave you three-year extensions.

It says on the Mie JETs Wiki that Yokkaichi immigration is stingy with three-year extensions:
http://www.miejets.org/gb/index.php?title=Visa_Extension
"you should apply for a three-year visa as you might get it. In recent years it seems the success rate has dropped a lot, however"

My boss also told me that in the last ten years, she has not seen a single of her teachers get a three-year extension.

And I went in and applied for an extension, including JLPT N4 and Kanji Kentei 5-Kyuu certificates and a cover letter, and...a one-year renewal.

So...I guess I'm trying to figure out why you got three-year extensions for NOVA, but Mie JETs and teachers at my school have a low success rate...

So basically, if Yokkaichi immigration seldom even gives out three-year extensions, I can only imagine how tough it must be to get a five-year extension here!

Should I find a job in another town?

Can I apply for my extensions at a different, friendlier immigration office? Is that allowed? Is that frowned upon? Will they be suspicious if I do that?
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rooster,
Sorry for not getting back to this thread sooner. I think you and/or the immigration officer you spoke to are still confused, and that it will be no problem.

Here's why.

You are misquoting the PR guidelines. They do not say that you have to have the 5-year SOR granted to you, simply because they don't exist yet!

Here's a copy/paste from the immigration guidebook website for PR (underlines are mine):
http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/english/tetuduki/zairyuu/guide_residence.html

Legal requirements
(1) The person is of good conduct.
The person observes Japanese laws and his/her daily living as a resident does not invite any social criticism.
(2) The person has sufficient assets or ability to make an independent living.
The person does not financially depend on someone in the society in his daily life, and his/her assets or ability, etc. are assumed to continue to provide him/her with a stable base of livelihood into the future.
(3) The person’s permanent residence is regarded to be in accord with the interests of Japan.

In principle, the person has stayed in Japan for more than 10 years consecutively. It is also required that during his/her stay in Japan the person has had work permit or the status of residence for more than 5 years consecutively. [Glenski note: Please read this as FOR 5 years, not a SOR OF 5-year period. Major difference. You simply have to have a resident status here for 5 years. Since this is what currently exists for guidelines, and there isn't a 5-year SOR yet, people will not have to worry.]
The person has been never sentenced to a fine or imprisonment. The person fulfills public duties such as tax payment.
The maximum period of stay allowed for the person with his/her current status of residence under Annexed Table 2 of the Immigration Control and Refugee Recognition Act is to be fully utilized.
There is no possibility that the person could do harm from the viewpoint of protection of public health.

*The requirements (1) and (2) above do not apply to spouses and children of Japanese nationals, special permanent residents or permanent residents, and requirement (2) does not apply for those who have been recognized as refugees

Special requirements for 10-year residence in principle

(1) The person is a spouse of a Japanese national, special permanent resident or permanent resident, and has been in a real marital relationship for more than 3 years consecutively and has stayed in Japan more than 1 year consecutively. Or, the person is a true child of a Japanese national, special permanent resident or permanent resident, and has stayed in Japan more than 1 year consecutively.
(2) The person has stayed in Japan for more than 5 years consecutively with the status of long term resident.
(3) The person has been recognized as a refugee, and has stayed in Japan for more than 5 years consecutively after recognition.
(4) The person has been recognized to have made a contribution to Japan in diplomatic, social, economic, cultural or other fields, and has stayed in Japan for more than 5 years.
※ Please see “Guidelines for Contribution to Japan.”
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Rooster_2006



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Glenski

I'm afraid you don't understand what I mean.

Here, I will dig up several sources that quote the 10-year PR guidelines and I will bold the part that says you must have the longest period of stay for your SOR...

http://www.hiraganatimes.com/hp/visa/file/visaqa105-e.htm:
Quote:
Permanent residence applicants must satisfy the following requirements in accordance to Immigration Law.

They must have a good record of behavior.
They must have sufficient assets or technical ability to support themselves.
Their permanent residence must be deemed to be beneficial to Japan by the Minister of Justice.
They must have stayed in Japan for more than 10 consecutive years. However, if it is deemed that they are contributing to Japan in fields including diplomacy, society, economics and culture, the term can be shortened to more than five consecutive years. Also, as for those who enter Japan with a foreign student visa and get a job after graduation, they are required to have stayed in Japan for more than five years after changing their visa status to a working visa.
They must have the longest term of residence for their visa status. In case of staying in Japan with the visa status of “Specialist in Humanities/International Services,” they are required to have a three-year term of residence.
They should not pose a threat to public health.


http://www.debito.org/?p=1664:
Quote:
Guidelines for Permission for Permanent Residence
Legal requirements
(1) The person is of good conduct.
The person observes Japanese laws and his/her daily living as a resident does not invite any social criticism.
(2) The person has sufficient assets or ability to make an independent living.
The person does not financially depend on someone in the society in his daily life, and his/her assets or ability, etc. are assumed to continue to provide him/her with a stable base of livelihood into the future.
(3) The person’s permanent residence is regarded to be in accord with the interests of Japan.
In principle, the person has stayed in Japan for more than 10 years consecutively. It is also required that during his/her stay in Japan the person has had work permit or the status of residence for more than 5 years consecutively.
The person has been never sentenced to a fine or imprisonment. The person fulfills public duties such as tax payment.
The maximum period of stay allowed for the person with his/her current status of residence under Annexed Table 2 of the Immigration Control and Refugee Recognition Act is to be fully utilized.
There is no possibility that the person could do harm from the viewpoint of protection of public health.
※ The requirements (1) and (2) above do not apply to spouses and children of Japanese nationals, special permanent residents or permanent residents, and requirement (2) does not apply for those who have been recognized as refugees


See what I mean?

There is a requirement that you must have the maximum period of stay for your visa/SOR category. Soon, this will be increased to five years. Please reference the links above.

And here, I am retyping the contents of a book that I got from the library that also states the requirement:
Quote:
原則として、正規の在留資格で引き続き10年以上日本に在留している者

その他、素行が善良であることや、生計要件を満たす必要があるほか、各在留資格の最長の期間(多くは3年)を許可されている必要があります。

(the name of the book is 外国人をサポートするための生活マニュアル and it was published in 2010)
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steki47



Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 680
Location: BFE Inaka

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rooster_2006 wrote:

So...I guess I'm trying to figure out why you got three-year extensions for NOVA, but Mie JETs and teachers at my school have a low success rate...


Because I'm so dashing?

Actually, I had first guessed it was because I was coming from Nova, a big time with a steady history (in 2004, mind you). I would think that the JET program would also be similarily seens as a good bet and thus get a 3-year visa.

Really scratching my head. Not complaining, mind you.
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the4th2001



Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 130
Location: Tokyo

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rooster_2006 wrote:

So...I guess I'm trying to figure out why you got three-year extensions for NOVA, but Mie JETs and teachers at my school have a low success rate...


Only speculation on my part, but size of the company (whether it be number of employees or net income) and position probably have a lot to do with it. My Italian friend came over as a tourist, found a job at a local architecture company, and just picked up a three year visa. Another friend (Kiwi) came over on a working holiday, found a tech related job after a couple of months and just got a three year visa as well. And just in case you're wondering, neither of them can speak Japanese.

I'm not sure how big your school is, but by the way you talk about it on your blog, it sounds relatively small. Maybe that's why you only got a year extension. That or you annoyed the folks over at the immigration office by trying to show off your Japanese and talking yourself up? I've seen what pissed off/annoyed immigration officers can do and it usually doesn't benefit the foreigner.
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G Cthulhu



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1321
Location: Way, way off course.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rooster_2006 wrote:


I'm trying to figure out why they gave you three-year extensions.


Because as we keep telling you and as you keep ignoring, the Immigration officer has huge discretion in what they do. Maybe when you go in you just annoy them?


Quote:

Can I apply for my extensions at a different, friendlier immigration office? Is that allowed? Is that frowned upon? Will they be suspicious if I do that?


You can apply wherever you want. No one will care. Several people have already said that. Are you reading any of the replies?!
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G Cthulhu



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1321
Location: Way, way off course.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rooster_2006 wrote:
@Glenski

I'm afraid you don't understand what I mean.

Here, I will dig up several sources that quote the 10-year PR guidelines and I will bold the part that says you must have the longest period of stay for your SOR...




.........Ahhh, Rooster, are you actually quoting sources that aren't the MOJ against the MOJ itself and saying that the MOJ must be wrong. In what the MOJ says about about their own regs. On their own website.

.....seriously?
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Rooster_2006



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Because as we keep telling you and as you keep ignoring, the Immigration officer has huge discretion in what they do.
...not when it comes to completely overlooking a well-known requirement...

And even if a few immigration officers were saying "Regulations, be damned!" as you suggest, it would still not be something that an eijuuken applicant could rely on.

G Cthulhu wrote:
Rooster_2006 wrote:
@Glenski

I'm afraid you don't understand what I mean.

Here, I will dig up several sources that quote the 10-year PR guidelines and I will bold the part that says you must have the longest period of stay for your SOR...




.........Ahhh, Rooster, are you actually quoting sources that aren't the MOJ against the MOJ itself and saying that the MOJ must be wrong. In what the MOJ says about about their own regs. On their own website.

.....seriously?
G Cthulhu, sometimes I wonder if you really take what you write seriously. You act like the MOJ Web site on eijuuken is the Bible, even though it hasn't been updated in over six years, has errors that have never been corrected in over six years, and is obviously incomplete. The MOJ site on eijuuken is a joke, seriously.

I have found THREE current sources (two Internet, one print) that confirm that this regulation exists. Want to see them? Scroll up.

Then I go into immigration and confirm this rule with the immigration officer (I didn't mention the rule, I simply asked "What are the requirements for eijuuken?" and HE mentioned it first).

So...four sources (two Internet, one print, and one high-ranking civil servant at the immigration office, who, by the way, is also MOJ). I could probably find more for you, but I don't think you'd believe me even if I did that. I have noticed in dealing with you on this forum, you don't seem like the "logic" kind of guy.

So...either all four of those sources are wrong, or you're wrong. Gee, I wonder which it is.
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