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Will getting permanent residency get harder from 2012?
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Inflames



Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 416

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G Cthulhu wrote:

.........Ahhh, Rooster, are you actually quoting sources that aren't the MOJ against the MOJ itself and saying that the MOJ must be wrong. In what the MOJ says about about their own regs. On their own website.

.....seriously?

Except the MoJ's website is a bit Engrishy but it says it (in the part Glenski quoted, no less).

Quote:
The maximum period of stay allowed for the person with his/her current status of residence under Annexed Table 2 of the Immigration Control and Refugee Recognition Act is to be fully utilized.

That's the Engrishy part. Here's the Japanese for it:
Quote:
現に有している在留資格について,出入国管理及び難民認定法施行規則別表第2に規定されている最長の在留期間をもって在留していること。

http://www.moj.go.jp/nyuukokukanri/kouhou/nyukan_nyukan50.html
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Rooster_2006



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inflames wrote:
G Cthulhu wrote:

.........Ahhh, Rooster, are you actually quoting sources that aren't the MOJ against the MOJ itself and saying that the MOJ must be wrong. In what the MOJ says about about their own regs. On their own website.

.....seriously?

Except the MoJ's website is a bit Engrishy but it says it (in the part Glenski quoted, no less).

Quote:
The maximum period of stay allowed for the person with his/her current status of residence under Annexed Table 2 of the Immigration Control and Refugee Recognition Act is to be fully utilized.

That's the Engrishy part. Here's the Japanese for it:
Quote:
現に有している在留資格について,出入国管理及び難民認定法施行規則別表第2に規定されている最長の在留期間をもって在留していること。

http://www.moj.go.jp/nyuukokukanri/kouhou/nyukan_nyukan50.html
All right, Inflames, thank you, now this thread is getting somewhere! Very Happy

So basically, we have confirmed the "maximum period of stay" requirement is a real requirement and not one that I just pulled from thin air.

Now that we have established that, the only question marks left are:
1. In the future, even with five-year periods of stay available, will a three-year period of stay still be acceptable for applying for eijuuken? (tentative answer: "NO," source: Yokkaichi immigration officer)
2. If not, how hard/random will getting a five-year period of stay be?

Once we answer those questions, we'll really be getting somewhere.

It may not be possible to answer them right now, but it's still worth keeping this thread active just to raise awareness of the issue until a solution is found. This small nuance of the law may seem trivial, but it affects virtually everyone who hopes to one day apply for eijuuken, so it is actually extremely important.
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the4th2001



Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 130
Location: Tokyo

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rooster_2006 wrote:
Inflames wrote:
G Cthulhu wrote:

.........Ahhh, Rooster, are you actually quoting sources that aren't the MOJ against the MOJ itself and saying that the MOJ must be wrong. In what the MOJ says about about their own regs. On their own website.

.....seriously?

Except the MoJ's website is a bit Engrishy but it says it (in the part Glenski quoted, no less).

Quote:
The maximum period of stay allowed for the person with his/her current status of residence under Annexed Table 2 of the Immigration Control and Refugee Recognition Act is to be fully utilized.

That's the Engrishy part. Here's the Japanese for it:
Quote:
現に有している在留資格について,出入国管理及び難民認定法施行規則別表第2に規定されている最長の在留期間をもって在留していること。

http://www.moj.go.jp/nyuukokukanri/kouhou/nyukan_nyukan50.html
All right, Inflames, thank you, now this thread is getting somewhere! Very Happy

So basically, we have confirmed the "maximum period of stay" requirement is a real requirement and not one that I just pulled from thin air.

Now that we have established that, the only question marks left are:
1. In the future, even with five-year periods of stay available, will a three-year period of stay still be acceptable for applying for eijuuken? (tentative answer: "NO," source: Yokkaichi immigration officer)
2. If not, how hard/random will getting a five-year period of stay be?

Once we answer those questions, we'll really be getting somewhere.

It may not be possible to answer them right now, but it's still worth keeping this thread active just to raise awareness of the issue until a solution is found. This small nuance of the law may seem trivial, but it affects virtually everyone who hopes to one day apply for eijuuken, so it is actually extremely important.


According to http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/newimmiact_1/q-and-a_page3.html question number 149, nothing's been decided yet for eijuken.

Q149:
現行の入管法施行規則別表第2に規定されている最長の在留期間をもって在留しているのですが,改正法施行後は,永住許可に関するガイドラインの1(3)ウにある「現に有している在留資格について,出入国管理及び難民認定法施行規則別表第二に規定されている最長の在留期間をもって在留していること」という要件を満たさなくなるのでしょうか。
A.
永住許可に関するガイドラインについては,見直しの要否も含めて検討中です。

About getting a 5 year visa, they say.
Q148:
改正法施行前に在留期間更新許可申請を行いましたが,最長5年の在留期間が付与される対象になるのでしょうか。
A.
入管法等改正法の施行日より前に在留期間の更新を申請した場合でも,平成24年(2012年)7月9日以降に在留期間の更新を許可されるときは,最長5年の在留期間が決定され得る対象となります。ただし、実際に5年の在留期間が決定されるか否かは審査の結果によります。
Or in other words, you're never going to know.
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Rooster_2006



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@the4th2001

Thanks a million for posting Q148 and Q149. Though I can basically understand them, there's no way I ever could have found them myself. So seriously, thanks a million.

It's good to know that at some level of the MOJ, they're aware of these issues and somebody, in an office somewhere, is thinking about them. Though it seems from that information like we don't really know anything certain yet, just that they're aware of the issue.

======
UPDATE:
======

I made a very, very rough (but hopefully readable) translation of Q149 (admittedly, I needed to go to the dictionary a fair amount, and since I translated much of it word-for-word, it sounds extremely Engrishy, but here we go):

現行の入管法施行規則別表第2に規定されている最長の在留期間をもって在留しているのですが

On the Appendix Chart II of the Immigration Control and Refugee Recognition Act regulations (which are currently being executed), it is for those who are residing [here] possessing the longest period of stay that is provided, but

改正法施行後は,

as for [what will happen] after the execution of the revised law,

永住許可に関するガイドラインの1(3)ウにある

there is Guideline 1 (3) U that relates to permanent residency,

「現に有している在留資格について,

"About the status of residence that one has presently,

出入国管理及び難民認定法施行規則別表第二に規定されている最長の在留期間をもって在留していること」

residing [here] and possessing the the longest period of stay, which is regulated on the Immigration Control and Refugee Recognition Act's executing regulations' Appendix Chart II" --

という要件を満たさなくなるのでしょうか。

they would become unable to fulfill that requirement, would they not?

永住許可に関するガイドラインについては,見直しの要否も含めて検討中です。

As for the guideline that relates to the permission for permanent residency, we are bearing it in mind and considering a review of whether or not it is even necessary.


Last edited by Rooster_2006 on Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:11 am; edited 3 times in total
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go to the link to Debito's blog and read what poster #14 wrote.

If one is currently supposed to have stayed the entire length of the maximum SOR, that would mean 3 years, but that poster clearly states he got PR without having stayed that long.

I suspect this is just one example of the wiggle room that these guidelines will allow. Please realize that these are guidelines, not laws, and that immigration officers and offices often give different interpretation to them. (See Debito's link on post #9 of that page.) Even different officers within the same office have contradicted each other.

I still would not be worried, Rooster, and would plan that it is the total consecutive duration, not the staying on maximum SOR that will allow you to qualify for PR. If you insist that the officer you spoke to is speaking the gospel, I can only refer you to all of the above, and either to ask another officer in that office where you went, or to see what another office has to say.
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Rooster_2006



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenski wrote:
Go to the link to Debito's blog and read what poster #14 wrote.

If one is currently supposed to have stayed the entire length of the maximum SOR, that would mean 3 years, but that poster clearly states he got PR without having stayed that long.

I suspect this is just one example of the wiggle room that these guidelines will allow. Please realize that these are guidelines, not laws, and that immigration officers and offices often give different interpretation to them. (See Debito's link on post #9 of that page.) Even different officers within the same office have contradicted each other.

I still would not be worried, Rooster, and would plan that it is the total consecutive duration, not the staying on maximum SOR that will allow you to qualify for PR. If you insist that the officer you spoke to is speaking the gospel, I can only refer you to all of the above, and either to ask another officer in that office where you went, or to see what another office has to say.
Thanks.

Thankfully, the4th2001's link to the MOJ site has this exact legal question on it, and it says they are currently considering whether or not to yank that clause (at least if I understood it correctly), so it seems as if they're aware of the problem and hopefully a solution will be forthcoming at some point during the 8+ years between now and when I go and hopefully apply for eijuuken.

I realize that sometimes immigration officers have discretion over fine points of the law, but that's nothing we should rely on... I know that some people get eijuuken in less than 10 years or the immigration officer (kindly) overlooks an inconvenient requirement that would otherwise prevent eijuuken issuance, but that doesn't mean we should bank on such judgment calls being in our favor...

However, fortunately, they are already aware of this issue, and will hopefully rectify it. I guess I can rest easier now -- eijuuken will hopefully still be available 8+ years from now when I become eligible to apply.
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G Cthulhu



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1323
Location: Way, way off course.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rooster_2006 wrote:
Inflames wrote:
G Cthulhu wrote:

.........Ahhh, Rooster, are you actually quoting sources that aren't the MOJ against the MOJ itself and saying that the MOJ must be wrong. In what the MOJ says about about their own regs. On their own website.

.....seriously?

Except the MoJ's website is a bit Engrishy but it says it (in the part Glenski quoted, no less).

Quote:
The maximum period of stay allowed for the person with his/her current status of residence under Annexed Table 2 of the Immigration Control and Refugee Recognition Act is to be fully utilized.

That's the Engrishy part. Here's the Japanese for it:
Quote:
現に有している在留資格について,出入国管理及び難民認定法施行規則別表第2に規定されている最長の在留期間をもって在留していること。

http://www.moj.go.jp/nyuukokukanri/kouhou/nyukan_nyukan50.html
All right, Inflames, thank you, now this thread is getting somewhere! Very Happy

So basically, we have confirmed the "maximum period of stay" requirement is a real requirement and not one that I just pulled from thin air.


Did anyone say otherwise?



Quote:

Now that we have established that, the only question marks left are:
1. In the future, even with five-year periods of stay available, will a three-year period of stay still be acceptable for applying for eijuuken? (tentative answer: "NO," source: Yokkaichi immigration officer)
2. If not, how hard/random will getting a five-year period of stay be?


As hard as it was/is to get a 3 year PoS?

Seriously, why are you yelling about the sky falling when all that's happening is a shift in the regs? Your second question simply can't be answered because it comes down to the discretion of the Immigration officer and, despite what you want the world to be like, that's just the way it is: they have discretion and they do apply it. Just. Like. Most. Other. Countries.


Quote:

Once we answer those questions, we'll really be getting somewhere.
It may not be possible to answer them right now, but it's still worth keeping this thread active just to raise awareness of the issue until a solution is found. This small nuance of the law may seem trivial, but it affects virtually everyone who hopes to one day apply for eijuuken, so it is actually extremely important.


Until then keep screaming about the world ending? Rolling Eyes
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Rooster_2006



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G Cthulhu wrote:
Rooster_2006 wrote:
Inflames wrote:
G Cthulhu wrote:

.........Ahhh, Rooster, are you actually quoting sources that aren't the MOJ against the MOJ itself and saying that the MOJ must be wrong. In what the MOJ says about about their own regs. On their own website.

.....seriously?

Except the MoJ's website is a bit Engrishy but it says it (in the part Glenski quoted, no less).

Quote:
The maximum period of stay allowed for the person with his/her current status of residence under Annexed Table 2 of the Immigration Control and Refugee Recognition Act is to be fully utilized.

That's the Engrishy part. Here's the Japanese for it:
Quote:
現に有している在留資格について,出入国管理及び難民認定法施行規則別表第2に規定されている最長の在留期間をもって在留していること。

http://www.moj.go.jp/nyuukokukanri/kouhou/nyukan_nyukan50.html
All right, Inflames, thank you, now this thread is getting somewhere! Very Happy

So basically, we have confirmed the "maximum period of stay" requirement is a real requirement and not one that I just pulled from thin air.


Did anyone say otherwise?
Yes, somebody did. That was before me and Inflames proved, beyond any reasonable doubt, that it is a real requirement.



G Cthulhu wrote:
Quote:

Now that we have established that, the only question marks left are:
1. In the future, even with five-year periods of stay available, will a three-year period of stay still be acceptable for applying for eijuuken? (tentative answer: "NO," source: Yokkaichi immigration officer)
2. If not, how hard/random will getting a five-year period of stay be?


As hard as it was/is to get a 3 year PoS?

Seriously, why are you yelling about the sky falling when all that's happening is a shift in the regs? Your second question simply can't be answered because it comes down to the discretion of the Immigration officer and, despite what you want the world to be like, that's just the way it is: they have discretion and they do apply it. Just. Like. Most. Other. Countries.


Quote:

Once we answer those questions, we'll really be getting somewhere.
It may not be possible to answer them right now, but it's still worth keeping this thread active just to raise awareness of the issue until a solution is found. This small nuance of the law may seem trivial, but it affects virtually everyone who hopes to one day apply for eijuuken, so it is actually extremely important.


Until then keep screaming about the world ending? Rolling Eyes
Nobody's screaming that the sky is falling or that the world is ending. Those are your words, not mine or anyone else's.

However, as someone who hopes to apply for eijuuken one day, this issue is important to me.

And no, I don't have unlimited faith that this issue will just "work itself out."

The point of this thread is to raise awareness of an issue that currently exists. The issue has not yet been rectified. You may think it will be rectified, but guess what, it hasn't been rectified yet. When it is rectified, I would be happy to close this thread.

So...if you don't have anything constructive to post in this thread, please don't post anything at all.


Last edited by Rooster_2006 on Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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the4th2001



Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 130
Location: Tokyo

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
However, I don't see what harm comes in discussing this issue. Simply ignoring the new regulations and pretending that everything will be fine and dandy is a very naive way to go about living one's life. Is that how you choose to live your life? Then fine. But don't impose your naive, overly-optimistic way of thinking on me.


The thing is though, there aren't any new regulations at this point in time. Jumping to random conclusions or worrying about things that have yet to be decided (and/or things that are out of your control) just leads to ulcers . . . especially in Japan where everything seriously is case-by-case.
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Rooster_2006



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the4th2001 wrote:
Quote:
However, I don't see what harm comes in discussing this issue. Simply ignoring the new regulations and pretending that everything will be fine and dandy is a very naive way to go about living one's life. Is that how you choose to live your life? Then fine. But don't impose your naive, overly-optimistic way of thinking on me.


The thing is though, there aren't any new regulations at this point in time.
But there are. Didn't you receive the pamphlet the MOJ sent you at your workplace? The five-year SOR is definitely going to be official from July. That's definite. And the maximum period of stay regulation has already been in effect for years.
Quote:
Jumping to random conclusions or worrying about things that have yet to be decided (and/or things that are out of your control) just leads to ulcers . . . especially in Japan where everything seriously is case-by-case.
True, it leads to ulcers. I'm not even going to try to deny that.

On the other hand, "worrying about things that have yet to be decided (and/or things that are out of your control)," as you put it, is why we have C-SPAN. And C-SPAN2. And C-SPAN3.

The trouble is, for us foreigners in Japan, we don't have a channel on TV where we can watch the Japanese MOJ deliberating over new regulations that will affect us. We have debito.org and we have Dave's ESL Cafe. And that's where we can stay up-to-date on issues like this.

So...think of this thread as C-SPAN.

And to anyone who says this is a pointless thing to worry about, I say "if you don't like C-SPAN, go to another channel." Goes for this thread, too.

I started this thread to monitor an important legal/political issue. Those who aren't worried about the issue simply need not click on it.
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the4th2001



Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 130
Location: Tokyo

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But there are. Didn't you receive the pamphlet the MOJ sent you at your workplace? The five-year SOR is definitely going to be official from July. That's definite. And the maximum period of stay regulation has already been in effect for years.


Nope. Never got one, but I'm fully aware of the new policies that are about to take place. But dude, come on. You're concerned about eijuken and at least for the time being, the MOJ has not decided on what, if any, changes will be made. You translated that yourself from my posting.

Quote:
The trouble is, for us foreigners in Japan


You really shouldn't put all foreigners into the same category.

Quote:
we don't have a channel on TV where we can watch the Japanese MOJ deliberating over new regulations that will affect us. We have debito.org and we have Dave's ESL Cafe. And that's where we can stay up-to-date on issues like this.


There's always NHK, some cable channels, government websites, newspapers, so on and so forth. If you (or anyone else for that matter) rely on Ardwinkle for your up-to-date news, then you really should buckle down and start studying Japanese a bit more.

Quote:
I started this thread to monitor an important legal/political issue. Those who aren't worried about the issue simply need not click on it.


Fair enough.
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G Cthulhu



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1323
Location: Way, way off course.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rooster_2006 wrote:
So...if you don't have anything constructive to post in this thread, please don't post anything at all.


Unfortunately that's not your call.

You are the one saying it's an "issue" and will need "rectifying." All I've been saying is that the regs are changing from a 3 year requirement to a 5 year requirement and what's the big deal in and of itself?

Again, my opinion is simply that you're being paranoid over something that doesn't warrant it. You've done nothing to show that it does warrant it (other than saying you're concerned and that you think it's an "issue"). I, and others, have pointed out that given the way the 3 year rule has been applied in practice there is no reason to indicate that the situation won't continue much (if not the same) as before: Immigration officers have discretion and will continue to apply it. YMWV. If you've got any sort of proof that things will change in the application of the rule then feel free to let us all know. Otherwise, IMO, you're simply scaremongering.
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Rooster_2006



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G Cthulhu wrote:
Rooster_2006 wrote:
So...if you don't have anything constructive to post in this thread, please don't post anything at all.


Unfortunately that's not your call.

You are the one saying it's an "issue" and will need "rectifying." All I've been saying is that the regs are changing from a 3 year requirement to a 5 year requirement and what's the big deal in and of itself?

Again, my opinion is simply that you're being paranoid over something that doesn't warrant it. You've done nothing to show that it does warrant it (other than saying you're concerned and that you think it's an "issue"). I, and others, have pointed out that given the way the 3 year rule has been applied in practice there is no reason to indicate that the situation won't continue much (if not the same) as before: Immigration officers have discretion and will continue to apply it. YMWV. If you've got any sort of proof that things will change in the application of the rule then feel free to let us all know. Otherwise, IMO, you're simply scaremongering.
Scaremongering. Awareness-raising. Whatever you want to call it.

Anyways, G Cthulhu, I've spent too much of my time debating with you.

I'm going to Jeju-do tomorrow for vacation. I'm going to be there for five days. And you know what? I plan to enjoy it!

So...here's the deal...I'm not going to sign into Dave's ESL Cafe at all until at least Sunday when I return from Japan. I'm going to climb Halla-san, visit the lava caves, go to that island thingy on the east coast of Jeju, and hopefully ride a submarine. Without Dave's ESL Cafe.

So...effective immediately with this post, I am now:
ON VACATION!
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although Rooster is away, I'd just like to add that I can understand his concern, and I can only echo the statement that there is darned little we can do at the moment. Unless someone wants to contact MOJ directly and ask, the only real tactic is to watch and wait. Perhaps Rooster was fishing for a real solution (not found) or perhaps he merely wanted to have an open thread as an announcement if something should come up from now to July. I suspect both, and there is no real harm in that, IMO, unless one goes overboard.

It may be a stressful point for one to consider. We are all different and take things differently. My advice is to remain watchful and realize that bureaucracies move slowly and not always clearly. Guidelines are not black and white laws, so guidelines are often laid out even more vaguely than we would like.

    * Japan's bureaucracy seems to move slower than many.
    * It usually seems to post Japanese language information first, so translations take time.
    * English translations are not always as complete.
    *The bureaucracy here often waits until the last minute to announce anything, partly IMO because of an inefficient way of operating.
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Cool Teacher



Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 891
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey everybody I just got permanent residence and I only had a three year instructor's visa. I applied half-way through the term of instructor visee and I got it. No problem! Very Happy Wink
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