Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

US Education System: Gone to the Dogs?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
EFLeducator



Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sashadroogie wrote:
Mexicans don't claim to have the best education in the world, as far as I know.


I never said they did.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12387
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Sasha,

I must say that I find it odd - being on the same side as EFLeducator on this thread. However, I also agree with him on this:

"I know of no other group in EFL that features this characteristic."


"I do."

I'll refrain from mentioning the "other group" since I abhor treading on "cultural sensibilities." Very Happy

Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9088
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Johnslat

Feel free, please. I make no claims to having the best system of education in the world, so you won't hurt any of my feelings. However, I stand by my statements: the only EFL teachers who make claims about their supposedly superior education, and yet who undermine such claims every time they ask what such and such a basic word means, are your compatriots. Nothing personal in that, I assure you, just describing what I see.

I don't expect much agreement from anyone on the thread, but perhaps I'll cause a few moments of introspection. With luck, silent reflection. And so perhaps future staff rooms will be spared the the cringe-inducing spectacle of recent American graduates, who managed to get through all of uni without opening a book, deigning to lecture their betters on... well anything, really.

One can hope, at least.


Regards

Sasha
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12387
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Sasha,

I can't "feel free" because of the this: the other group I have in mind probably has many (other? - I'm not even sure what nationality YOU are, although I think I may know) readers on here. So, while I might not offend your "cultural sensibilities', I could easily offend those of others.

Also, of course, my impressions about this "other group" could easily be mistaken since those impressions are based solely on personal experience, and such anecdotal "proof" is, as I'm sure you'll agree, not at all sufficient to base a wide-ranging generalization on.

Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
artemisia



Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 867
Location: the world

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's hard to maintain a sense of "fairness" and "balance" about anything while being constantly subjected to Bush's physiog.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12387
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear artemisia,

Aww, now you're being unfair to the unbalanced Very Happy (Or in PC speak: the mentally disordered.)

Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tttompatz



Joined: 06 Mar 2010
Posts: 1951
Location: Talibon, Bohol, Philippines

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnslat wrote:

OK - it's still kind of low. But comparing, say, the number of Americans who have passports to the number of British (71%) would be apples and oranges.

1. The British need a passport to travel to France.

2. Given the average income and costs associated with raising kids for the average American, and given the costs of traveling abroad, even the cheapest trip abroad would be beyond the budget of a typical family.

Balanced and fair.

Regards,
John


Ummm... the cost of a trip abroad for a large number of Americans would be the cost of a tank of gas and a night or two in a motel when they get there (somehow different than a Brit going to France?)

(but you may be right and the cost may very well may be beyond the financial ability of a large majority of America families)

and they still need a passport to go to Canada or Mexico (due to US border rules) or the US border patrol won't let them back into their OWN country.

.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
artemisia



Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 867
Location: the world

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But John, I could have written "while my eyes are undergoing a constant and sustained assault"!! (I thought I was remarkably restrained).

At the tertiary level, I find it interesting that so many Asian and Arab students I've come across still see America as THE place to study. Everywhere else seems to be almost second best. It's not been true of everyone but still a significant number. I suspect Harvard and names of other Ivy League universities are ringing and clamouring loudly in their ears as well as the pulse of the big cities. I don't think they see themselves tucked away somewhere small and less exciting in the States.


Last edited by artemisia on Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:24 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Matt_22



Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 193

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sashadroogie wrote:
Dear Johnslat

Feel free, please. I make no claims to having the best system of education in the world, so you won't hurt any of my feelings. However, I stand by my statements: the only EFL teachers who make claims about their supposedly superior education, and yet who undermine such claims every time they ask what such and such a basic word means, are your compatriots. Nothing personal in that, I assure you, just describing what I see.

I don't expect much agreement from anyone on the thread, but perhaps I'll cause a few moments of introspection. With luck, silent reflection. And so perhaps future staff rooms will be spared the the cringe-inducing spectacle of recent American graduates, who managed to get through all of uni without opening a book, deigning to lecture their betters on... well anything, really.

One can hope, at least.


Regards

Sasha




Look, any criticism of any country's education system is gonna bring out the nutters, especially on a board like this about a country like America. And I'm not trying to say that there aren't a lot of awful, arrogant American teachers out there. I'm sure there are, and it sounds like you've met a few of them yourself.

But praise for the US educational system (unlike a lot of other things in the US) is not a myth full of self-delusion, but actually something that should be defended by all teachers around the world in the face of growing criticism.

Teachers in the US are now facing increasing pressure for cutbacks in funding and teacher pay, with narrow-minded voices justifying that by pushing the narrative that the system is "flawed" - that teachers in the US are overpaid, lazy, and incompetent.

That line of reasoning doesn't hold up. The data indicate that US teachers are performing admirably - despite facing significant socioeconomic issues that teachers in many other developed countries couldn't dream of.

http://nasspblogs.org/principaldifference/2010/12/pisa_its_poverty_not_stupid_1.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tttompatz



Joined: 06 Mar 2010
Posts: 1951
Location: Talibon, Bohol, Philippines

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is just as much about education for profit gone mad as it is poverty stricken kids (kids in the states don't usually die of starvation).

But back to the OP and the US education system going to the dogs....

the US is the ONLY country that flagrantly allows "diploma mills" thus allowing your local "pet" to get a degree. Diploma/degree mills are illegal in most (if not all) commonwealth countries (many of which are far worse "poverty" problems than the Americans could even comprehend) and they are illegal in most of Europe as well (even in places like Portugal and their system as known for years as being "less than stellar".

It is because of things like this coming out of America that more and more countries now REQUIRE degrees to be authenticated and legalized before they will accept them for use internationally.

It is not about America bashing... but it is time for Americans to wake up and smell the coffee... something is broken in the system and it needs to be addressed.

.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Matt_22



Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 193

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tttompatz wrote:
It is just as much about education for profit gone mad as it is poverty stricken kids (kids in the states don't usually die of starvation).

But back to the OP and the US education system going to the dogs....

the US is the ONLY country that flagrantly allows "diploma mills" thus allowing your local "pet" to get a degree. Diploma/degree mills are illegal in most (if not all) commonwealth countries (many of which are far worse "poverty" problems than the Americans could even comprehend) and they are illegal in most of Europe as well (even in places like Portugal and their system as known for years as being "less than stellar".

It is because of things like this coming out of America that more and more countries now REQUIRE degrees to be authenticated and legalized before they will accept them for use internationally.

It is not about America bashing... but it is time for Americans to wake up and smell the coffee... something is broken in the system and it needs to be addressed.

.


Still, no one wants to address the fact that for as broken as the US system is, it still outperforms all other nations when test scores are compared relative to economic class. Now test scores only amount to so much, but they're one of the few objective ways to look at educational outcomes. If other systems are so superior, why are their scores consistently lower?

As far as diploma mills are concerned - they might still exist, but they aren't recognized as legitimate. I can also pick up a diploma in Khao San Road that will give me the same benefits. Who cares? Why does that even matter?

And if you're going to look seriously at poverty, you can't compare apples to oranges. If you look at developed, high-income countries, you'll find that the US scores very poorly in terms of income inequality, relative poverty, and crime rates (South Africa is a major outlier, but it doesn't really belong in this category anyway). Just one statistic for example: The 2010 homicide rate in the US was 4.8 (out of 100,000 people). The highest rate in all of western Europe was Finland at 2.3 - less than half of that in the US.


Last edited by Matt_22 on Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:21 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Matt_22



Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 193

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it's worth, I'm a big admirer of the Finnish education system. I just feel like teachers in the US get bagged on all the time undeservedly, and I get tired of people putting them down when they have no idea what they are talking about.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
EFLeducator



Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt_22 wrote:
Still, no one wants to address the fact that for as broken as the US system is, it still outperforms all other nations when test scores are compared relative to economic class.


Right!

Matt_22 wrote:
If other systems are so superior, why are their scores consistently lower?


Excellent question!


Keeping it FAIR & BALANCED
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9088
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt_22 wrote:
For what it's worth, I'm a big admirer of the Finnish education system. I just feel like teachers in the US get bagged on all the time undeservedly, and I get tired of people putting them down when they have no idea what they are talking about.


I'm not interested in attacking teachers anywhere. I do not know if it is the teachers' fault, society's, the government's, or even if the whole population is simply lacking. But the resulting education levels of the Americans whom I know is quite shocking. I'm not referring to the stereotypical clueless tourist abroad for the first time. I mean graduates, at Masters level even, who should know, if they wish to be considered part of the educated class, who, say, Dante is, or where Poland is, or even what a theorem is. I don't mean that they should know everything about these things - just knowing what they are is quite enough not to be branded 'stupid'.

Having said that, of course I have met seriously bright, well-educated Americans too. But they, to their credit, are usually the first to cringe whenever their hapless countrymen put their foot in their mouth. The withering remarks they have to make about the University of Colorado are not repeatable here, not about the University of Florida.

We can play the 'scores' game endlessly, but one question I would ask is from where you get your data from to say that other countries' scores are consistently lower?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Matt_22



Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 193

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sashadroogie wrote:
Matt_22 wrote:
For what it's worth, I'm a big admirer of the Finnish education system. I just feel like teachers in the US get bagged on all the time undeservedly, and I get tired of people putting them down when they have no idea what they are talking about.


I'm not interested in attacking teachers anywhere. I do not know if it is the teachers' fault, society's, the government's, or even if the whole population is simply lacking. But the resulting education levels of the Americans whom I know is quite shocking. I'm not referring to the stereotypical clueless tourist abroad for the first time. I mean graduates, at Masters level even, who should know, if they wish to be considered part of the educated class, who, say, Dante is, or where Poland is, or even what a theorem is. I don't mean that they should know everything about these things - just knowing what they are is quite enough not to be branded 'stupid'.

Having said that, of course I have met seriously bright, well-educated Americans too. But they, to their credit, are usually the first to cringe whenever their hapless countrymen put their foot in their mouth. The withering remarks they have to make about the University of Colorado are not repeatable here, not about the University of Florida.

We can play the 'scores' game endlessly, but one question I would ask is from where you get your data from to say that other countries' scores are consistently lower?



Fair enough, but your argument seems pretty anecdotal, and I'm not sure I'd criticize an American for not knowing Dante. Seems pretty Eurocentric. I'm teaching in Asia right now, and you wouldn't believe how little my students know about America and Europe. It just isn't a priority here compared to things like math, science, English, or even local and Chinese history. Might be shocking but it's understandable when you think of how class time is allocated.

And yeah - the University of Colorado is known more for it's good pot than anything else, and the entire state of Florida has a reputation all to itself.
Wink You need to get some different American co-workers.

The data I am discussing come from the Program for International Student Assessment (PISA), which is coordinated by the OECD. The aggregate totals do not look good for the US, but if the numbers are controlled for poverty levels, outcomes change significantly.

Here are some links:

http://neatoday.org/2010/12/09/a-look-at-the-economic-numbers-on-international-education-rankings/

http://nasspblogs.org/principaldifference/2010/12/pisa_its_poverty_not_stupid_1.html

I just wish there were more voices speaking on behalf of teachers in the United States, because there is a strong conservative agenda set out to undermine public education. And if you think us Americans are idiots now, just wait until organizations like the Family Research Council are writing the textbooks and flushing science down the crapper.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2011 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Road2Spain - TEFL and Spanish with one year student visa
EBC