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China 1st timer questions
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blox



Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:12 am    Post subject: China 1st timer questions Reply with quote

1st timer 22year old male New Zealand, heading to a Guangdong public high school March 2013 with a degree but no tefl or teaching exp.
So from what I understand a z visa is out of the question with restrictions now.

1- Wont get a tourist visa with a 10 month return flight I guess so one way ticket or open ended return flight best option?

2- Recruiters invitational letter will state my reason is a cultural exchange to learn chinese and experience the culture, is this all good/common?

If anyone from Guangdong is willing to talk or anyone who can help with the visa process, would really be appreciated!
Message me your skype if so and I will get in contact!
Thanks
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johntpartee



Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 3258

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You shouldn't do this.
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fat_chris



Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:01 am    Post subject: Re: China 1st timer questions Reply with quote

blox wrote:

So from what I understand a z visa is out of the question with restrictions now.

1- Wont get a tourist visa with a 10 month return flight I guess so one way ticket or open ended return flight best option?

2- Recruiters invitational letter will state my reason is a cultural exchange to learn chinese and experience the culture, is this all good/common?


johntpartee is right. These are all red flags. Check the boards and other postings here about the risk of working in China with employers who can't/won't provide the proper z-visa for work. Furthermore, I'd be wary of any "employer" who would label my work as a "cultural exchange" and would indicate it as such on the invitational letter. Hmm...

Keep looking and do consider ways to get some experience in your home country in the meantime, for instance, working on a 120-hour certificate and/or doing some volunteer ESL instruction for a literacy center.

Teaching English in China isn't going anywhere and it will be here for you; hence, there's no need to rush into things.

Good luck with it all.

Warm regards,
fat_chris
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blox



Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its not that the employer cant afford the z visa. its that I dont qualify for one correct? I only have a degree, dosnt one need tefl cert and 2 years exp?

I understand its not the best thing to take on but it is what I have decided on.
I have from march2013-jan2014 to do fill in before teachers college.
I have been to China before so thought I would travel and gain experience in a place which I enjoyed.

From what I have seen travelling to china on a tourist visa and then teaching isnt that uncommon at all. Even at these forums its popular.

If the 'cultural exchange' is a bad idea haha. what else should I label the trip as? obviously cant be work related.
Would I be better of saying I am a personal friend to my recruiter and just use her details and leave out all company related details?


Last edited by blox on Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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doogsville



Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 923
Location: China

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are going to do this I wouldn't bother booking a return ticket as the PSB will no doubt put you on the first available flight after you've been arrested and spent some time in a cell while they process your fine and get the money for that and the flight ticket either from you or your relatives back home.

Now, before others jump in, this might not happen, but then again it might. You will be working illegally, and the Guangdong government is one of the strictest when it comes to enforcing employment law.

Then there's the fact that your going to teach in a public middle or senior school. I've done that, it's not pleasant. You are likely to be faced with 50 to 60, or more, students who speak very little English and don't particularly want to learn any more. There will be no room in the class to move around in or play games or do activities in. If you are very lucky you might have a Chinese teacher to assist and keep order. It's more likely is that the teacher will either not be there, or if they are they will use the time to mark papers and play with their phone, leaving you to control the students. It sucks. That's probably the reason the recruiter has to find unqualified people who are willing, for some bizarre reason, to come and do it illegally. People who have a choice choose to go elsewhere.

Also I know of at least two recruitment agencies in Guangzhou who have a reputation of farming teachers out to various schools, which means the teachers have to spend the whole day travelling from school to school while only getting paid for the teaching hours. Of course they can complain or quit, but if they're working illegally on tourist visas it severely restricts their option.

Don't do it. You have the degree, so get a TEFL certificate as fat_chris suggests. It's quick and easy to do online, though it won't really teach you much or qualify you to teach. The experience is often optional when it comes to getting the Z visa, so there are jobs out there you could get which would provide you with the proper, legal documents you need to work safely and securely.
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blox



Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh k I didnt realize some working visas were possible without exp.
I forgot to mention my recruiter did say they would sort out my papers on arrival but that is obviously sketchy.
And yea I am looking into a cheap fast tefl cert just to have the bit of paper like you say.

Im not looking for max salary or anything in particular.
Basically a little hours middle/secondary gig with free accommodation and some airfare if possible.
I'm basically open to anything/anywhere.

What would be your recommendations may I ask?
Are there any particular provinces that are less strict or even would be legal for just a degree?
Any particular programs or recruiters that would suit me maybe?
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dean_a_jones



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Certainly if you look for less popular provinces (such as Hubei, Henan etc.) then, even without the two years experience and TEFL certificate, you might be able to wrangle a job. What really works against you is age (as being 22 pretty much indicates no experience). Having said that, I have worked with a few 22 year olds, right out of university, non-teaching majors, non-TEFL certified and they arrived on proper Z visas, converted into residency permits as is proper.

You should be insisting on getting this. If the recruiter is going to lie about anything, it should be about your experience etc. (i.e. you did some English language teaching during a summer break) in order to get you the proper working papers, as once you have these it doesn't matter. Lying to get the wrong visa to get in here to work illegally means the lie is continuous, which does matter and is risky.

As others have said, the situation you are suggesting will make you vulnerable to the whims of the recruiter/school, and many will treat you like a starving farmer treats his only plowhorse. Of course you can walk away at any point, as you are not tied to the school. If this option is going to have any safety, it will mean you need to have a pretty decent chunk of cash to keep you going while you look for something better (maybe 10 - 15,000RMB). Remember this will need to cover hotels/rent, food, travel etc., and even if you get another job after a week or two, you will still probably have to wait 4 - 6 weeks for the first paycheck.

So if you really are open to anything, anywhere, I would be looking for schools that will get you the proper working papers, as this carries less risk and is much more likely to land you with a job you can tolerate (if not love). As I said, given your experience and current credentials, these are not likely to be in the biggest cities on the East coast.

Edited to add: The other thing you now have working against you is the time, as most schools will be going on their spring festival break at the end of this week if they are not already on them--spring festival proper this year starts around 9 Feb, and so the window of getting your paperwork before this is pretty narrow now--perhaps one of the reasons why your recruiter will tell you that you should come over on a tourst visa and they will convert (of course they will tell you anything they think you want to hear, as you getting here means them getting paid). Some schools might actually mean this promise, although that might mean you have to pay yourself for a trip to HK to do it--not such a problem if you are in Guangdong, but an expensive proposal from more distant provinces. Just a few extra thoughts.
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MisterButtkins



Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Posts: 1221

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can get a proper Z-visa in working in Heilongjiang, Jilin, or Liaoning. I have worked in Jilin and Liaoning and, for probably half of my coworkers, it was their first teaching job. Don't expect a big salary, though.
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Banner41



Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 656
Location: Shanghai

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been recently relocated to Guangzhou by my company and me and my girlfriend both had a lot of problems with the GZ PSB. We both have all the qualifications including degrees, relevant work experience and proper certs and it took almost 4 months to sort out our paperwork. There was a stretch when I thought they might reject the applications because of recent crackdowns. In Guangdong it's not as simple as it used to be to just jump to Hong Kong for an extension of a visa. They are looking very close at them now. A recruiter who says come on a tourist visa and we will convert it already screams red flags. as stated above, they will all be off on holiday pretty soon so they will not be processing applications very quickly. The recruiter knows this and thus them asking you to just get here on any visa. You will not make that starting date if done properly due to the large number of applications processed here and because of the impending holiday. If you have your heart set on this job insist they do the paperwork properly and just wait for you. If not, find a place that will. You have a lesser chance of getting screwed by a recruiter if they had to at minimum bring you over on the proper paperwork.
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blox



Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok so guangdong really dosnt seem the best place to work illegally.
It was basically the nicest school that I thought would suit me that was on offer.
ok so should I start applying with recruiters again asking for only positions that I will be able to secure a work visa with?
If I am to do this and include that the location dosnt matter, do you think there would be much interest?

In the meantime I will start my search and apply in Heilongjiang, Jilin, or Liaoning.
any contacts with these provinces would be appreciated!!
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doogsville



Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 923
Location: China

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do you want to work specifically in public schools, and why do you feel you need to go through a recruiter. Are you a masochist? Both of those can, and likely will, involve a lot of pain. Why not try a nice little language mill to start out with. Sure, you'll work weekends and some evenings, but it's not the end of of the world.

Have a look on these boards and others. There's lots of schools you can apply directly to. The competent ones will sort out the paperwork for you, which is a good sign that they will be okay to work for. Recruiters will do nothing you are not capable of doing yourself. Indeed, a lot of them just find jobs on boards like these and take a cut for doing nothing much at all.

Good luck with it all.
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teachingld2004



Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Posts: 389

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:42 am    Post subject: 22 yrs old, no experience Reply with quote

Do NOT take that job. There are lots of jobs here. Sure they wi be in rural areas, but its a first job.

If you can not find one, go to Korea, get experience, and then come to China.

NEVER take a job that will not give you proper papers.
I repeat, NEVER
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fred13331



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 108
Location: Southern China

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:19 pm    Post subject: Re: China 1st timer questions Reply with quote

blox wrote:
1st timer 22year old male New Zealand, heading to a Guangdong public high school March 2013 with a degree but no tefl or teaching exp.
So from what I understand a z visa is out of the question with restrictions now.

1- Wont get a tourist visa with a 10 month return flight I guess so one way ticket or open ended return flight best option?

2- Recruiters invitational letter will state my reason is a cultural exchange to learn chinese and experience the culture, is this all good/common?

If anyone from Guangdong is willing to talk or anyone who can help with the visa process, would really be appreciated!
Message me your skype if so and I will get in contact!
Thanks


I live in Guangzhou, Guangdong. This is asking for jail time
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DirtGuy



Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 529

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go west, young man or at least really rural. The unis and public schools will be desperate for a white face and someone will figure out a way for you to get papers. You can always move when your contract is up.

One of the teachers here had some problems with his age/experience and had to prove that, yes, he really did have a couple of year of experience. My city is out in the sticks so imagine what it's like in more populated areas.

Not all recruiters are bad, by the way. I would not turn my nose up at them but be upfront about your situation and what you need.

Follow the advice here - it is good.

DirtGuy
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Burke



Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Posts: 42
Location: Beijing

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnPartee and Dirt Guy both gave you good advice. I will offer you mine as well... Find a better place to work than china. I have been here almost 4 years and looking back I should have left after year 1 and before I knocked up my soon-to-be wife. If you are single and not worried about money, China is fun but gets old quick.

Besides there are many other countries who pay MUCH better than China without all the worry about being ripped off. See this link and you'll see what I mean... www.ChinaScamBusters.com

If you do come to China keep in touch with this forum because there are a lot of veterans here who always have good advice when you run into "unusual problems". But also keep in mind that the visa laws change here roughly every 6 months with no advance notice.
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