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Friendly advice re:Bell - Warsaw Szczecin, Gdansk, Bydgoszcz
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1650
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 5:59 pm    Post subject: erm Reply with quote

So lots of schools closing......and er...the same amount of teachers chasing the hours available......I'm in Poland on holiday right now and of my dozens of teacher mates.....I can think of only about half a dozen who are doing ok.......and they've all been here more than a decade. When did wages last go up? What has happened to the cost of everything in the past decade? Long-term...it's very hard to make a decent, viable living.
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delphian-domine



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 674

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

simon_porter00 wrote:
nowhere near the end of the road for ELT in Poland and won't be for another 20 odd years. Some schools closing because their owners followed stupid business models does not necessarily mean that there's a deficit in demand.


I would argue that clients have simply got much smarter - companies these days know that they can get decent teachers quite cheaply, and they also know that they can push schools to accept wafer thin margins. It's a disaster for big chain schools, but others are mopping up.

Quote:
As was pointed out the kids market will be huge - read HUGE - for the next 10-15 years. This is why the BC are going hell for leather down this road and spreading out on these lines across Poland with affiliates/other partnership or combinations.


It will be huge, I agree - but an interesting question is whether a school can survive by only offering kids classes. The future will lie - in my opinion - in hybrid facilities that can offer all sorts of training opportunities and can get EU grants for doing so. A building should and must be in use from 7am to 9pm - it won't make money by catering solely to classes from 3pm to 7pm.

Quote:
What is dead is the "let's bang a school in the middle of town, pay an expensive rent, expect our classes to be full and make s**t loads of money" approach.


Without a doubt. Those ones that are all controlled from a "centralna" - that can't adapt - are bound to fail sooner rather than later.

Perhaps full time jobs with chain schools are more or less dead, but that's not a bad thing anyway. As for universities - a discussion with a rather senior professor of UAM recently revealed that they are absolutely screaming out for people who have a PhD or better and that it is a source of much frustration that natives don't have any interest in seeing the university as a career.

(of course, they then wonder why they only get 1 year contracts...)
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simon_porter00



Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 505
Location: Warsaw, Poland

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 6:49 pm    Post subject: Re: erm Reply with quote

dragonpiwo wrote:
So lots of schools closing......and er...the same amount of teachers chasing the hours available......I'm in Poland on holiday right now and of my dozens of teacher mates.....I can think of only about half a dozen who are doing ok.......and they've all been here more than a decade. When did wages last go up? What has happened to the cost of everything in the past decade? Long-term...it's very hard to make a decent, viable living.


Dragonpiwo, at the cost of grossly generalising, if you've been teaching in Poland for more then a decade and you are still working for a school, not owning it / working for yourself and / or you haven't found your niche in the EFL market and are exploiting it ... I'm sorry, but you've only got yourself to blame.

Schools shut down because they are losing money / not making the margins. This does not necessarily mean there aren't punters out there who want to learn and pay good money for doing so i.e. the concept of wanting to be in a class of 12/15 and paying 1500zł (or more or less) a semester for 1/12th or 1/15th of a teacher's time is dead and/or dying.
You only have to work the system for 1/2 years to see that, not 10 years.
The individual market as far as I can see in Warsaw, is booming.

Don't you think that if the cost of everything is going up - which is hardly a shock at the end of the day - would MAKE you want to earn more money and ergo work out a way to do this?

I have. Many others have. Pi**ing your money away in the boozer is not the way to do this.

If I can ask a question. You say 5 or 6 of your mates are doing OK. Are they doing anything different? Have they 'adapted' for what ever reason? Have your friends that are struggling really chased different avenues / made their own way?

It's easy to say EFL is going down the toilet if you don't try. You could say the same for any industry anywhere. There are hundreds of angles out there to earn decent money in Poland (admittedly, more easily in the big towns).
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delphian-domine



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 674

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: erm Reply with quote

dragonpiwo wrote:
So lots of schools closing......and er...the same amount of teachers chasing the hours available......I'm in Poland on holiday right now and of my dozens of teacher mates.....I can think of only about half a dozen who are doing ok.......and they've all been here more than a decade. When did wages last go up? What has happened to the cost of everything in the past decade? Long-term...it's very hard to make a decent, viable living.


What you're missing is that while chain schools might be in trouble, there are plenty of smaller schools opening up at the same time. Yes, there might not be the cushy full time deals on offer anymore, but there's still plenty of work around.

Wages go up every year for me. Written into my contract, wham, bam, thank you. And I'm being funded to go back to study further as well, which is always useful for future professional development.

The "teachers" that you talk about aren't teachers, they're people who work what they can when they can. I know them, and I know how they live - the boozer is often far more important than attending that conference. It's their choice and most of them are happy for it - but it also reflects why they don't get permanent contracts with decent salaries. How many natives in Poland are on the teacher work path? Next to none. Why not? How many are examiners for OKE, or involved with the student Olympics? Barely any. Why not? How many are involved with writing exams for matura/etc? Barely any. Why not?

It's all to do with their attitude towards life. The Poles are busy treating it as a professional career, the natives are treating it as a bit of an excuse to go on the lash. And that is why they suffer, not because Poland has issues.

simon_porter00 wrote:
Dragonpiwo, at the cost of grossly generalising, if you've been teaching in Poland for more then a decade and you are still working for a school, not owning it / working for yourself and / or you haven't found your niche in the EFL market and are exploiting it ... I'm sorry, but you've only got yourself to blame.


Absolutely. In that time, you could have obtained a PhD, had papers published and been on the path to being a professor. Or found one of any number of niches, or even opened a school - but the demon booze often wrecks people.

Quote:
If I can ask a question. You say 5 or 6 of your mates are doing OK. Are they doing anything different? Have they 'adapted' for what ever reason? Have your friends that are struggling really chased different avenues / made their own way?


I've worked a ridiculous amount this week - probably 30 real hours (not academic hours) by the time it's all finished. Tomorrow, I'll present a workshop, I'll translate a website and probably some other administrative tasks, as well as teaching for 3 hours. I had to observe a new student yesterday and come up with a recommendation as to whether he should be admitted or not, as well as having a meeting about the student and organising a fire drill for this morning.

I've been to Helsinki to visit schools and I've gone to one conference so far (with another to come) this year alone.

But then, I don't have to worry about my job next year. These jobs exist, but it requires willing and hard work - and being willing to forget about the pub if work requires it. This is the real issue - that most natives are happy to cruise (and take the decent enough money for doing so) rather than develop professionally.

Now, to bed - tomorrow is a long day. Worth it, though - and I've already received one offer to move schools next year without even applying. Won't be moving, but it shows that people who are willing to take on responsibility can be rewarded here.
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NilSatis82



Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delphian-domine wrote:
Perhaps full time jobs with chain schools are more or less dead, but that's not a bad thing anyway. As for universities - a discussion with a rather senior professor of UAM recently revealed that they are absolutely screaming out for people who have a PhD or better and that it is a source of much frustration that natives don't have any interest in seeing the university as a career. (of course, they then wonder why they only get 1 year contracts...)


Are you trying to say it's surprising that there aren't more native speakers with a PhD that want to work in Polish universities? If so, I think you're slightly deluded. Do you know how difficult it is to get funding for a PhD in the UK, for example? At 3 or 4 years to complete, self-funding isn't a realistic option either. Even for those that can get a PhD, I hardly think that many of them would want to go to all that trouble just so they can work in a Polish university.
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simon_porter00



Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 505
Location: Warsaw, Poland

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doing a PhD in Poland is easy compared to one in the UK. Nearly all of my students under 30 are PhDs in law. In some cases, it's even seen as an 'add-on' the master's degree.
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1650
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 9:16 am    Post subject: erm Reply with quote

Simon...I don't work in Poland....I just live here and have done since 95, so I know something about the cost of living. How long have you been here ahem?
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NilSatis82



Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

simon_porter00 wrote:
Doing a PhD in Poland is easy compared to one in the UK. Nearly all of my students under 30 are PhDs in law. In some cases, it's even seen as an 'add-on' the master's degree.


I don't doubt it but doesn't it rather depend on the discipline as to how easy it is to get a PhD (in any country)? I'd bet there is significantly more funding available for fields such as law and science and technology compared to ELT and linguistics.
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simon_porter00



Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 505
Location: Warsaw, Poland

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: erm Reply with quote

dragonpiwo wrote:
Simon...I don't work in Poland....I just live here and have done since 95, so I know something about the cost of living. How long have you been here ahem?


OK, I'll answer your question as long as you answer mine.

I've been living here since 2004, teaching since 2007 and have lived in Krakow and Warsaw. I bought a flat, still own it and have built a house and have the mortgages to match. I run two cars and have a family and a son. I, also, know something about the cost of living in Poland.

My turn.

Do you have any other argument apart from your well trodden argument (given under your current or any of your previous pseudonyms) other than "the cost of living is getting more expensive"?

I know the cost of living is getting more expensive. As mentioned, this is happening all around the world and it simply is not an argument in my eyes.

You went away to earn more money for yourself and your son and anything you pay your ex/any other commitments you have in Poland. You realised that the only way to have your lifestyle was to go to the middle east and earn more.

I, in order to earn more, looked at what I do best, invested my time and energy into focusing on these things whilst maximising time for my family.

The key here: life is getting more expensive and we have adapted accordingly.

What I want to know is this:
Why do you defend your mates who have not improved their lot in the last decade? If you and I had to find a way to earn more money - why can't they?

Is it not obvious why schools' standard business models of "get bums on seats" will falter whilst independent/entrepreneurial teachers will not?

Your messages about money and Poland are doom and gloom. For a lot of us, this is patently not true.
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delphian-domine



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 674

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NilSatis82 wrote:
simon_porter00 wrote:
Doing a PhD in Poland is easy compared to one in the UK. Nearly all of my students under 30 are PhDs in law. In some cases, it's even seen as an 'add-on' the master's degree.


I don't doubt it but doesn't it rather depend on the discipline as to how easy it is to get a PhD (in any country)? I'd bet there is significantly more funding available for fields such as law and science and technology compared to ELT and linguistics.


Not really - Poland has a wealth of funding available for PhD candidates, and even part time PhD's are pretty cheap as far as these things go. I have several friends who were offered the chance to stay at the university - it's just nothing special in Poland at all. All of them were in 'humanities' subjects.

Like Simon says, it is often seen as an 'add-on' to the MA/MSc - there is really nothing special or unique about it.

As for what I was saying - the point is that universities here are screaming out for PhD candidate native speakers. But the demon booze often gets in the way...

An interesting question - how many papers have native speakers had published in Poland? The ones I know that have published are all much older than the norm - but then, they haven't let booze wreck their lives.
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NilSatis82



Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="delphian-domine"]
NilSatis82 wrote:
simon_porter00 wrote:
Doing a PhD in Poland is easy compared to one in the UK. Nearly all of my students under 30 are PhDs in law. In some cases, it's even seen as an 'add-on' the master's degree.


I don't doubt it but doesn't it rather depend on the discipline as to how easy it is to get a PhD (in any country)? I'd bet there is significantly more funding available for fields such as law and science and technology compared to ELT and linguistics.

Not really - Poland has a wealth of funding available for PhD candidates, and even part time PhD's are pretty cheap as far as these things go. I have several friends who were offered the chance to stay at the university - it's just nothing special in Poland at all. All of them were in 'humanities' subjects.


I have to admit that I have no idea what funding is available to do a PhD in Poland in various subjects and how much it costs. I was just going on my intuition (and logic) that would suggest that funding for research heavy disciplines are more likely to attract funding than social sciences such as education and linguistics, where research impact is rather minimal.

delphian-domine wrote:
Like Simon says, it is often seen as an 'add-on' to the MA/MSc - there is really nothing special or unique about it.


Like I suggested above, I'd imagine this very much depends on the subject. For some professions it is expected or even required but for ELT/Linguistics, you could hardly say that is true. If you have plans to go into academia, then fine, but that's not true for most English language teachers in Poland or anywhere else in the world for that matter.

delphian-domine wrote:
As for what I was saying - the point is that universities here are screaming out for PhD candidate native speakers. But the demon booze often gets in the way...


You're completely missing the point here. Alcohol is not the reason why there are so few native speakers with a PhD queuing up to work at Polish universities. Unless a native speaker is tied to Poland for the rest of their life, why on earth would they spend 3 or 4 years to get a PhD (from any country) just to work at a Polish University? Salaries for university professors are pitiful even by Polish standards, so it's hardly worth the effort.


delphian-domine wrote:
An interesting question - how many papers have native speakers had published in Poland? The ones I know that have published are all much older than the norm - but then, they haven't let booze wreck their lives.


I don't know where your obsession with native speakers and alcohol comes from as I've only ever met one native speaker teacher with a serious alcohol problem.

Anyhow, again you're missing the point. Native speakers who come to Poland almost always do so to work in the private sector and hence unsurprisingly, that's where they tend to stay. They also haven't done their degrees in a Polish university and so are therefore not going to have the benefit of having the option to stay on and study for a PhD after graduating, unlike their Polish counterparts. Many of them are also here short-term and therefore are unlikely to make the investment in going into academia if they're not here for the long-haul. Most of those that do stay here long-term have come later in life and so if working in a university, it's hardly surprising that they are older than their Polish colleagues who have had a head start on them.

I would have thought this was all rather obvious but seemingly not Rolling Eyes
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simon_porter00



Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 505
Location: Warsaw, Poland

PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the point DD was trying to make was that there are a fair number of long termers in Poland. Teachers are still here who came in the early 90's. Evidently in Poznan there are a number of them and of course in Krakow and Warsaw.
OK, there aren't thousands, but there are some. Now contrast that figure of all of those long termers with supposed "knowledge" about how to teach and how it works in Poland with those who actually decide to do more than 'just' work for a school and the numbers are (more than likely although there's no way to say for sure) pretty slim.
In Warsaw, a number of firms were set up by those who were entrepreneurial across a number of sectors - translation, linguistic support, advertising, media work etc and there are some who furthered their academic career or teaching interests by becoming part of the conference crowd, writing textbooks/other books, getting better qualifications etc.
However, I'll bet my bottom dollar that these people are a small fraction of those long termers.
DD used higher education to show this - yes it is easy to get a PhD in Poland. No you don't need the funding that you need in the UK. Yes there are a lot of universities who will allow you do to do it. Therefore, it's not a question of anything else apart from willingness.
In the wider context, this willingness (not only from long termers) is startling in its apparent absence. Now, I can't say for sure what all natives are doing - because I haven't met all of them, and I'm sure many have reasons (other than bone-idleness) for not doing so - no interest (like me), families, time/money constraints etc. But given that life is evidently getting more expensive, is it not at least a little bit surprising why these people have been caught out by life getting more expensive/school's closing?
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NilSatis82



Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon, you are most probably right regarding the number of long-termers who actually make a concerted effort to further their career. If you're sick of hearing them complain about how hard life is/how terrible ELT is/how expensive things are in Poland, then I don't blame you for being frustrated by them.

However, that is a broader issue. The point DD asked was why aren't there more native speakers with a PhD in Poland wanting to work in universities? I suggested that these are rather obvious and just saying that they are all in the pub getting drunk was rather lazy and ill-informed.

Regarding how easy it is to do a PhD in ELT/linguistics in Poland, I have genuinely no idea how it works so I'd be curious to hear from anyone who knows of a native speaker who has done one. However, I wonder how 'easy' it really is to get one.

For example, what proportion of research proposals get accepted?

What kind of grants and scholarships are available? Do they give you enough money to live on?

What happens if you don't have a Master's degree (as is the case for most native speakers in Poland)? Surely that would mean another two years of study (in Poland at least).

What's the relationship like between supervisors and students? I can imagine PhD students being rather subservient to professors in Poland, which could easily be taken advantage of.
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simon_porter00



Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 505
Location: Warsaw, Poland

PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll ask a few of my lawyer students who are doing / have done PhDs and find out how it works. Watch this space.
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delphian-domine



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 674

PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NilSatis82 wrote:
However, that is a broader issue. The point DD asked was why aren't there more native speakers with a PhD in Poland wanting to work in universities? I suggested that these are rather obvious and just saying that they are all in the pub getting drunk was rather lazy and ill-informed.


No no - those with PhD's aren't getting drunk in the pub. I've met a couple, and they are hard working, dedicated people - they probably go to the pub once a month if that.

I'm talking about those that have the opportunity to get a PhD - very often, they're happy to get into the university and just coast. It's reflected in how the universities treat them - like crap.

Quote:
I'd be curious to hear from anyone who knows of a native speaker who has done one. However, I wonder how 'easy' it really is to get one.

For example, what proportion of research proposals get accepted?

What kind of grants and scholarships are available? Do they give you enough money to live on?

What happens if you don't have a Master's degree (as is the case for most native speakers in Poland)? Surely that would mean another two years of study (in Poland at least).

What's the relationship like between supervisors and students? I can imagine PhD students being rather subservient to professors in Poland, which could easily be taken advantage of.


- If you've done an MA through a real university, got good grades and have decent contacts with the professors, you'll almost certainly get offered the chance to do one. Or you can just do one part time and pay for it - for instance - look at this -

http://www.sgh.waw.pl/ksztalcenie-en/doctoralstudies/

22,000zl (entire course) for a PhD in English - part time - is not really much money at all for a native speaker. Yes, it'll be hard work, and yes, an MA/MSc is obligatory before applying for a PhD. But there are some nice side benefits, such as getting half price train tickets until you're 35 and being eligible to all sorts of nice discounts as a student.

Getting onto your last point - you are completely correct. The universities *do* have a very specific mentality that doesn't suit everyone,

But at the end of the day - a PhD is a PhD. It opens doors in the world, separates them from the crowd (anyone can teach CAE grammar - not everyone is Dr ...) and gives them that all important bragging rights in Poland.

If they're already working at the university, it's a no-brainer - so why aren't they doing it?

(bear in mind here - we're only talking about long termers in Poland who want to settle here)
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