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The War in Iraq...
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15329

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not go the whole way and call it "The Zionist Entity" ?

Just deny that it exists for long enough and it will go away.
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el_gringo_que_viaja



Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 17
Location: Heading East

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott, Just deny that it exists, and it'll go away.... it kinda seems like the same thing many Israeli settlers said to me who refused to refer to the West Bank as Palestine, insisting that it was Judea and Samaria and Palestine didn't exist.

John, I would have made the same comments about not feeling sympathetic towards the suicide bombers before I stayed there. Then, it suddenly made sense. If you lived with no rights, under military control, and see your friends, family, or neighbors shot at for fun by Israeli military, especially at a young age, you might feel enough hatred to strap a bomb on yourself and go after those who are oppressing you. (One of the interviews I did was with the mother of a 14 yr old boy who was killed by a rubber bullet to the eye from a distance of 10 meters. Her daughters expressed a hatred for the soldiers like I could never relate to after having the good life that I have had.) Mix that with the Muslim belief that it is better to fight back than suffer when you are being oppressed and we have an explosive situation over there.

The truth is that I came back from spending a month in the West Bank, and I was more confused than before I went. Some of the most zealous fighters against the occupation were American Jews and Israeli refuseniks, and I read articles in the Jewish media that would be considered incidiary if they were published in the states, but none of that changes the fact that there is some serious suffering going on there.

Oh, John, and about the Zionist occupied wording... I totally agree. It doesnt help. Meeting with a group called the International Solidarity Movement, I learned the wording they try to include in all of their press reports (i.e. don't say "Security Fence", say "Apartheid Wall," instead of violence, say "state supported terrorism," etc. etc.) Anyhow, I went with them to a protest in Mas'ha where Israelis, Palestinians, and Internationals protested the wall. The IDF opened fire immediately and shot one american and one israeli. It got its 15 seconds on BBC and CNN. Afterwards, the Solidarity Movement released their version of it. When I looked at the different versions, I was amazed at how biased the protestors version sounded, even though it was the one that most accurately represented what happened. I was curious if others would have the same reaction, so I had my freshman comp class do a mini discourse analysis on it and the majority of the kids told me that the wording of the press release made them loose any sympathy. Lesson being... we don't need to say Zionist, Apartheid Wall, state sponsored terrorism, etc., because the facts of what is going on are bad enough to speak for themselves without creative wording that only gets peoples emotions fired up.
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Bindair Dundat



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 1123

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

el_gringo_que_viaja wrote:
Scott, Just deny that it exists, and it'll go away.... it kinda seems like the same thing many Israeli settlers said to me who refused to refer to the West Bank as Palestine, insisting that it was Judea and Samaria and Palestine didn't exist.

John, I would have made the same comments about not feeling sympathetic towards the suicide bombers before I stayed there. Then, it suddenly made sense. If you lived with no rights, under military control, and see your friends, family, or neighbors shot at for fun by Israeli military, especially at a young age, you might feel enough hatred to strap a bomb on yourself and go after those who are oppressing you.


Dear Mr. Viaja,

Mr. 47 was being ironic. Smile

I imagine that Mr. Slat is capable of feeling as much hatred as anyone, but I have a difficult time imagining him boarding a bus full of civilians so he could blow them away in a gesture of dumb rage. Even in the most trying circumstances, I believe that he, like many of us, would try to distnguish between effective and ineffective action; his comments would also lead me to believe that he would try very hard to distinguish between armed and unarmed people.

While your sympathetic explanation of the genesis of the convictions that may lead to mass murder has superficial plausability, consider also that many Palestinian children are TRAINED to hate Isaraelis. Among the many Palestinians who I have known, pathological hatred of Israel and Israelis is generally not a state that is arrived at individually after suffering or witnessing cruelty; it is a cultural given that exists among the wealthiest and most comfortable, and it is a part of their personalities long before they are old enough to understand the history of the conflict.

If I believe what my eyes tell me, hatred of Israel is a standard part of the curriculum in Palestinian children's schools, at least in refugee camps in Jordan

In my opinion, there are many Palestinians who feel honor-bound to motivate their children to avenge crimes committed against their grandfathers or great-grandfathers. This perpetuation of the cycle of violence is itself a crime.

BD
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 6:48 pm    Post subject: The Cycle of Hatred and Violence Reply with quote

Dear el_gringo_que_viaja,
Sorry - but I'm never going to think that suicide bombing, by anyone for any reason, is sensible.

Quote:
I would have made the same comments about not feeling sympathetic towards the suicide bombers before I stayed there. Then, it suddenly made sense.


Have you ever noticed how, when there's the faintest hope that some kind of solution might be reached, either a suicide bomber blows up a bus/cafe, killing/maiming many, including women/children or a psycho shoots up a mosque, doing the same. The extremists on BOTH sides don't want any kind of "compromise" to be reached; they want all or nothing. So, whenever it seems that some sort of agreement might, even possibly, be within sight, the old haters on both sides send out their brainwashed pawns to inflame the passions and push any chance of a peaceful settlement into the background again.
I'd say that any action, motivated by blind hatred, is highly unlikely to lead to any good end. Instead, what you get is tit-for-tat retaliation, an ever descending, never-ending, cycle of violence.
Yes, the Palestinians have gotten and are getting a VERY raw deal. But, in my opinion, suicide bombers or Jewish fanatics who murder innocent people are NOT going to make the madness stop - just the opposite, in fact. Moreover, the suicide bombers give the whole Palestinian movement a "bad press/image" in the minds of many. This is the reason that Arafat publically condemned such actions (by BOTH sides):

"The Palestinian leadership and His Excellency President Arafat express their deep condemnation for all terrorist activities, whether it is state terrorism, terrorism by a group or individual terrorism. This position comes from our steady principle that rejects using violence and terror against civilians as a way to achieve political goals.

We declared this position beginning in 1980 and also when we signed the Oslo accords at the White House and we have repeated it several times before, including our declaration on Dec. 16 last year. After that, we did not find any Israeli response but more Israeli escalation, a tighter siege, further occupation of our people, refugee camps, cities, villages, and more destruction of our infrastructure.

We strongly condemn all the attacks targeting civilians from both sides, and especially the attack that took place against Israeli citizens yesterday in Jerusalem.

We also condemn very strongly the massacre that was committed by the Israeli occupation troops against our refugees in Jenin and against our people in Ramallah, Nablus and Tulkarem and also the brutal aggression against the church in Bethlehem during the last two weeks."

Arafat knows that he has to rein in his own extremists, and even Sharon seems to be beginning to see that now.
Regards,
John

Dear Bindair Dundat,
Let's not forget that there are more than a few Israelis who teach their children to hate, as well.
Regards,
John
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Bindair Dundat



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 1123

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:52 pm    Post subject: Re: The Cycle of Hatred and Violence Reply with quote

johnslat wrote:

Let's not forget that there are more than a few Israelis who teach their children to hate, as well.


I can only imagine. I'm not being partisan; it's just that I know Palestinian culture fairly well, having lived in it. I don't know squat about the Israelis.

BD
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Mark100



Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 441

PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole Israel Palestine issue is a thorny one.

I have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinian cause and feel the Israelis who suffered so greatly during WW11 should know better.
They have refined the art of state terrorism and as a consequence many of their tactics and operations are not that dissimilar to those employed by the Germans during WW11.
I can't say that i fully understand the tactics of the Palestinians and i don't think that their leaders have served them very well over the years. They let a very good deal slip away that Clinton brokered just before he left office. To me that was criminal. The best interests of the average Palestinian would have been well served by taking that deal.Instead we have a leadership that encourages hatred and indeed institutionalises it and a leadership that is happy to see its citizens matyred.
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