Site Search:
 
Get TEFL Certified & Start Your Adventure Today!
Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Stop paying for work permit and don't let them keep it!

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Vietnam
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Jbhughes



Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 254

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:29 am    Post subject: Stop paying for work permit and don't let them keep it! Reply with quote

I've just applied to one of the foreign-owned schools. I was absolutely flabbergasted when they asked me to pay the fee for the work permit application. I also saw in their drawer all of the work permits from the current teachers in the school.

As far as I'm concerned, the law is very clear about this:

Paying for the work permit:

Clause 2, Article 19 of the Decree on Employment and Administration of Foreigners Working in Vietnam, number 34/2008, dated 25th March 2008 (amended and supplemented, although the amendments do not affect this particular clause):

Article 19: Responsibilities of employers and Vietnamese parties.

Clause 2. To carry out procedures to apply for issuance, extension and re-issuance of work permits for foreigners to work in Vietnam and to pay the fees for issuance of work permits in accordance with law.

Clause 9, Article 14 of the Circular Guiding the Implementation of a Number of Articles of Decree Number 34/2008/ND-CP, dated 25 March, 2008 (the above decree). This is Circular Number 31/2011/TT-BLDTBXH, dated 3rd November, 2011:

Article 14. Responsibilities of the employers, Vietnam side partner and foreign non-governmental organizations

Clause 9. To pay fees for grant of work permits, extension of work permits and regrant of work permits under the provisions of law on charges and fees.

I will follow with the relevant clauses regarding who keeps the work permit later, after work. Do note that there is a further document, which amends and supplements 34/2008, numbered 46/2011, but this doesn't affect the articles regarding who pays for it.

EDIT: Few mistakes, highlights.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jbhughes



Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 254

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Employee is responsible for keeping the work permit:

Clause 1, Article 13, Decree Number 34/2008/ND-CP:

Article 13 - Use of work permits

Clause 1. Foreigners shall be responsible to retain their issued work permits for the term of validity.


Also of note:

Clause 2. Foreigners shall present their work permits when conducting procedures for entry and exit, and on request by a competent State body.

Clause 1, Article 10, Circular 31/2011/TT-BLDTBXH:

Article 10. Use of work permit

1. Use of work permit as prescribed in clause 1 of Article 13 of Decree No.34/2008/ND-CP (as in the above clause) amended and supplemented, is guided to implement as follows:

Foreigner shall be responsible for keeping work permit granted when it is still valid. Not later than 02 (two) days after the work permit has expired or is invalid, the foreigner must submit the work permit to the employer or Vietnam side partner, representative of foreign NGO.

Further, written on the back of the damn thing itself:

"3- The utilization of this permit is restricted to the bearer."

The Vietnamese is a little more direct and less flowery:

"3- Kh�ng được cho người kh�c mượn."

Literally: "Not allowed to lend it to someone else." (or similar).

Links to Vietnamese language documents to print out and put under people's noses:

Decree 34/2008:
http://moj.gov.vn/vbpq/Lists/Vn%20bn%20php%20lut/View_Detail.aspx?ItemID=12795

Circular 31/2011:
http://csdl.thutuchanhchinh.vn/content/download/445373/11446200/file/31_2011_TT-BL%c4%90TBXH.doc (direct download link)

Decree 46/2011 (this one amends and supplements some articles from 34/2008, not directly related to my particular points, but one should read this, too):

http://vanban.chinhphu.vn/portal/page/portal/chinhphu/hethongvanban?class_id=1&_page=1&mode=detail&document_id=101121

Article = Điều
Clause = khoản (although you can't search for "khoản 2", just find the Điều and scroll down to the correct number.

I can't remember where I got the English versions of the above documents, but if you just google the number along with 'English' or 'tiếng Anh', then you should find them. Failing that, just put it all in google translate, I've used that before with Vietnamese law documents and you can pretty much know what's going on. That, or assign it as HW in one of your classes?! They'd probably just do the googling for you, though Razz

If anyone disagrees with any of the above, has more up-to-date legal documents, or has experience with the actual Government departments doing something different (I don't mean the school spinning a load of bullshit lies), do share. I'm open to correction.

Please, though - stop just going 'ok, ok, ok.' it makes it so much harder for the rest of us, who'd rather not fork over 500-odd k, which will just slip into some admin's pocket anyway. There's always the possibility of a re-fund, too.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
biliana



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 53
Location: Vietnam

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent points of reference!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mark_in_saigon



Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:49 am    Post subject: the problem I see on all this Reply with quote

The problem I see on all this is you have your actual fees and then you have your additional charges that are not documented. I think the argument the schools make is they don't want to pay those "additional charges", so it gets somewhat confused. I do generally agree with what you are saying though, and think it would be great if everyone brought these documents with them when the question came up. Despite the supposed enforcement this year, looks to me like pretty much the same story where there is not this great compliance this year compared to years past.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
inhanoi



Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 165

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the law is very clear. I've never paid for a WP or Visa in 4+ years working for one of the "foreign-owned schools." So perhaps you should name the school. They are obviously violating the law.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Andy123



Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 206

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me guess the school that is doing this:

Asian High School and IPS a.k.a. The spawns of Satan were you sell your soul knowning you are probably doing more harm than good.

I absolutely loved the kids but found administration truely the closest thing to real evil.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
biliana



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 53
Location: Vietnam

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy123 wrote:
Let me guess the school that is doing this:

Asian High School and IPS a.k.a. The spawns of Satan were you sell your soul knowning you are probably doing more harm than good.

I absolutely loved the kids but found administration truely the closest thing to real evil.


This outfit is Vietnamese owned...... and yes, you are correct in your description of this nest of vipers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jbhughes



Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 254

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:06 am    Post subject: Re: the problem I see on all this Reply with quote

mark_in_saigon wrote:
The problem I see on all this is you have your actual fees and then you have your additional charges that are not documented. I think the argument the schools make is they don't want to pay those "additional charges", so it gets somewhat confused. I do generally agree with what you are saying though, and think it would be great if everyone brought these documents with them when the question came up. Despite the supposed enforcement this year, looks to me like pretty much the same story where there is not this great compliance this year compared to years past.


Yes, I agree. There seem to be a few different types of fees.

1. The actual fee for the work permit document (4-500k, can't remember the exact figure, but it's written down somewhere and a number of people have quoted the figure before on Dave's).

2. The cost of getting together all the documents you need. E.g. the health check, notarising and translating the documents.

3. Various costs involved with the school being able to get work permits for foreigners in general and the foreigner in particular. (Ranging from legitimate costs, such as paying for job adverts to more disputed, under-the-table costs).

It seems pretty clear that the laws above specify that the employer should pay fees associated with 1 and that the foreigner is largely responsible for 2 (unless the company is kind enough to pay for them, and some on Dave's have said that their employers have done so).

Clause 2, Article 15, Circular 31:

Article 15: The liability of the foreigners

Clause 2. To apply for registration for recruitment, prepare the necessary papers in the dossiers requesting for issuance of work permits, the extension of work permits and regrant of work permits under the regulations. After being granted work permits, the foreigners and the employers must sign the labor contracts in writing in accordance with provisions of the labor law of Vietnam.

There are a few other clauses saying that the foreigner must prepare them, so I can't see any real ground for us trying to claim that the employer has to pay for those documents (not that I think you are saying that Mark, or in fact that I have seen anyone else saying it, either).

Fees associated with 3 are a controversial topic on Dave's. I thought I'd read somewhere that companies have to get the permission from the Director (Chủ Tịch) of the Provincial People's Committee to employ foreigners, but I can't find that clause now. Personally, I can't see how that or getting the labour department to do what they should in any useful time frame would come cheaply. However, this argument has raged before. I hope we don't resort to shit throwing again.

inhanoi wrote:
Yes, the law is very clear. I've never paid for a WP or Visa in 4+ years working for one of the "foreign-owned schools." So perhaps you should name the school. They are obviously violating the law.


The purpose of the thread wasn't necessarily to disparage one branch of a particular centre, rather to highlight the law to everyone so that they will be a little more empowered when dealing with employers. To be honest, although I see how useful it would be, I don't really want to reveal the employer, as it would reveal who I am and I quite like the anonymity of posting on Dave's.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Vietnam All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Teaching Jobs in China
Teaching Jobs in China