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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 1373 Location: Way, way off course.
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:53 am Post subject: |
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Pitarou wrote: |
But the original question was not asking about these more specialised areas. This was about basic, mainstream English.
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Whose mainstream? That's the entire point. (Want to tell me that "whose" is not a word in any "acceptable grammar"?)
No one is saying anything goes. Nor, as far as I can see, is anyone saying that X grammar (RP, NZE, AS, etc) is "better" (although I did like the "I teach Standard English" statement - if only for the meaninglessness of it) but as teachers of English the question should be a simple answer of, 'In X grammar, Y is acceptable. In A, B, C, it isn't. Which one are you teaching?" Instead people starting declaring A or B the only acceptable answers and implicitly rejected all other forms. |
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Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009 Posts: 1116 Location: Narita, Japan
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:22 am Post subject: |
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G Cthulhu wrote: |
Want to tell me that "whose" is not a word in any "acceptable grammar"? |
You've lost me there. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 1373 Location: Way, way off course.
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Pitarou wrote: |
G Cthulhu wrote: |
Want to tell me that "whose" is not a word in any "acceptable grammar"? |
You've lost me there. |
Only a few forms of English use "whose". You didn't know this? |
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Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009 Posts: 1116 Location: Narita, Japan
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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G Cthulhu wrote: |
Pitarou wrote: |
G Cthulhu wrote: |
Want to tell me that "whose" is not a word in any "acceptable grammar"? |
You've lost me there. |
Only a few forms of English use "whose". You didn't know this? |
Hmm. I see. You're setting me up for some kind of intellectual coup de grace. I'd better just resign now before I get totally humiliated.
Bye. |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005 Posts: 3292 Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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"FWIW": A quick glance in my Longman dictionary shows that 'whose' is among the 1000 most common words used in writing, and among the 2000 most common words in speech. It is also one of the words in the Longman's list of 2000 'defining vocabulary' words. It is thus a core word by both British and American "national standards" at least (and doubtless quite a few others too), which are hardly 'only a few forms of English'. That some people may very rarely or indeed "never" utter the word (though they would understand it well enough) in their everyday conversation seems neither here nor there, given that equally, quite a few others do use the word, and apparently with some regularity. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Only a few forms of English use "whose". You didn't know this? |
Whose post is this??? |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 1373 Location: Way, way off course.
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Pitarou wrote: |
G Cthulhu wrote: |
Only a few forms of English use "whose". You didn't know this? |
Hmm. I see. You're setting me up for some kind of intellectual coup de grace. I'd better just resign now before I get totally humiliated.
Bye. |
No, actually. Quite the opposite. More to the point, it was beside the point. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 1373 Location: Way, way off course.
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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fluffyhamster wrote: |
"FWIW": A quick glance in my Longman dictionary shows that 'whose' is among the 1000 most common words used in writing, and among the 2000 most common words in speech. It is also one of the words in the Longman's list of 2000 'defining vocabulary' words. It is thus a core word by both British and American "national standards" at least (and doubtless quite a few others too), which are hardly 'only a few forms of English'. That some people may very rarely or indeed "never" utter the word (though they would understand it well enough) in their everyday conversation seems neither here nor there, given that equally, quite a few others do use the word, and apparently with some regularity. |
Excellent. Go on. Use is function and use defines acceptance, ala the Big W. And take us back to the OP and apply those "rules" and we get... |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 1373 Location: Way, way off course.
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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spiral78 wrote: |
Quote: |
Only a few forms of English use "whose". You didn't know this? |
Whose post is this??? |
If someone really wanted to argue we could discuss whether it applies to inanimate objects. |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005 Posts: 3292 Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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No, actually. Quite the opposite. More to the point, it was beside the point. |
Aha! ( Or should that be, Hmmm? ). Either way, mystery solved, yabba dabba do, Scooby Dooby-Do! |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005 Posts: 3292 Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent. Go on. Use is function and use defines acceptance, ala the Big W. And take us back to the OP and apply those "rules" and we get... |
Um, a Cherry Bakewell Tart?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakewell_tart |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 1373 Location: Way, way off course.
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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fluffyhamster wrote: |
Quote: |
Excellent. Go on. Use is function and use defines acceptance, ala the Big W. And take us back to the OP and apply those "rules" and we get... |
Um, a Cherry Bakewell Tart?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakewell_tart |
Not quite what I was expecting, no. |
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Alex_Ander
Joined: 13 Sep 2012 Posts: 57 Location: The fourth dimension.
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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"No, I don't."
Do you? |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009 Posts: 930 Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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Pitarou wrote: |
Cool Teacher wrote: |
Pitarou wrote: |
G Cthulhu wrote: |
In what sense do you mean "wrong"? Are you saying that the second option is somehow incomprehensible or outside normal use between the users concerned? As far as I'm concerned, that's the only test of "correctness." |
I mean that it's outside of normal usage. That is the sense of the original question, is it not? |
Hmmmm....I would have to check that as I don't know this is true. |
Go ahead. Knock yourself out.
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Proficient speakers of English give answers that match the form of the question. They do not give "have" answers to "do" questions. |
Are you sure? |
sigh I thought this thread died a natural death some time ago.
Of course there are exceptions to this rule, and of course there are dialects and historical forms that do things differently. But the original question was not asking about these more specialised areas. This was about basic, mainstream English.
And these days I'm a full-time student on top of my full-time-ish job, so I really don't have time to go into this any further. |
Eh? It did die and now you bring it back from teh dead like Lazarus! I posted that like six months ago nearly. I can't even remember the question but I think you might be wrong about the grammar. These days linguists use corpora to discover if something is right or wrong in grammar. |
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Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009 Posts: 1116 Location: Narita, Japan
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Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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Cool Teacher wrote: |
Eh? It did die and now you bring it back from teh dead like Lazarus! I posted that like six months ago nearly. |
My apologies, Cool Teacher. A few people started posting here again, and I got confused. Can we just forget I said that? |
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