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Grammar question
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G Cthulhu



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1322
Location: Way, way off course.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pitarou wrote:
But the original question was not asking about these more specialised areas. This was about basic, mainstream English.


Whose mainstream? That's the entire point. (Want to tell me that "whose" is not a word in any "acceptable grammar"?)

No one is saying anything goes. Nor, as far as I can see, is anyone saying that X grammar (RP, NZE, AS, etc) is "better" (although I did like the "I teach Standard English" statement - if only for the meaninglessness of it) but as teachers of English the question should be a simple answer of, 'In X grammar, Y is acceptable. In A, B, C, it isn't. Which one are you teaching?" Instead people starting declaring A or B the only acceptable answers and implicitly rejected all other forms.
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Pitarou



Joined: 16 Nov 2009
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Location: Narita, Japan

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G Cthulhu wrote:
Want to tell me that "whose" is not a word in any "acceptable grammar"?
You've lost me there.
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G Cthulhu



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pitarou wrote:
G Cthulhu wrote:
Want to tell me that "whose" is not a word in any "acceptable grammar"?
You've lost me there.


Only a few forms of English use "whose". You didn't know this?
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Pitarou



Joined: 16 Nov 2009
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Location: Narita, Japan

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G Cthulhu wrote:
Pitarou wrote:
G Cthulhu wrote:
Want to tell me that "whose" is not a word in any "acceptable grammar"?
You've lost me there.

Only a few forms of English use "whose". You didn't know this?

Hmm. I see. You're setting me up for some kind of intellectual coup de grace. I'd better just resign now before I get totally humiliated.

Bye.
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 2676
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"FWIW": A quick glance in my Longman dictionary shows that 'whose' is among the 1000 most common words used in writing, and among the 2000 most common words in speech. It is also one of the words in the Longman's list of 2000 'defining vocabulary' words. It is thus a core word by both British and American "national standards" at least (and doubtless quite a few others too), which are hardly 'only a few forms of English'. That some people may very rarely or indeed "never" utter the word (though they would understand it well enough) in their everyday conversation seems neither here nor there, given that equally, quite a few others do use the word, and apparently with some regularity.
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Only a few forms of English use "whose". You didn't know this?


Whose post is this???
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G Cthulhu



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pitarou wrote:
G Cthulhu wrote:
Only a few forms of English use "whose". You didn't know this?

Hmm. I see. You're setting me up for some kind of intellectual coup de grace. I'd better just resign now before I get totally humiliated.
Bye.


No, actually. Quite the opposite. More to the point, it was beside the point. Smile
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G Cthulhu



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1322
Location: Way, way off course.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fluffyhamster wrote:
"FWIW": A quick glance in my Longman dictionary shows that 'whose' is among the 1000 most common words used in writing, and among the 2000 most common words in speech. It is also one of the words in the Longman's list of 2000 'defining vocabulary' words. It is thus a core word by both British and American "national standards" at least (and doubtless quite a few others too), which are hardly 'only a few forms of English'. That some people may very rarely or indeed "never" utter the word (though they would understand it well enough) in their everyday conversation seems neither here nor there, given that equally, quite a few others do use the word, and apparently with some regularity.


Excellent. Go on. Use is function and use defines acceptance, ala the Big W. And take us back to the OP and apply those "rules" and we get...
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G Cthulhu



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1322
Location: Way, way off course.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spiral78 wrote:
Quote:
Only a few forms of English use "whose". You didn't know this?


Whose post is this???


If someone really wanted to argue we could discuss whether it applies to inanimate objects. Smile
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fluffyhamster



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
No, actually. Quite the opposite. More to the point, it was beside the point. Smile


Aha! Razz ( Or should that be, Hmmm? Confused ). Either way, mystery solved, yabba dabba do, Scooby Dooby-Do! Very Happy
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Excellent. Go on. Use is function and use defines acceptance, ala the Big W. And take us back to the OP and apply those "rules" and we get...


Um, a Cherry Bakewell Tart? Laughing Razz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakewell_tart
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G Cthulhu



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1322
Location: Way, way off course.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fluffyhamster wrote:
Quote:
Excellent. Go on. Use is function and use defines acceptance, ala the Big W. And take us back to the OP and apply those "rules" and we get...


Um, a Cherry Bakewell Tart? Laughing Razz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakewell_tart


Not quite what I was expecting, no. Smile
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Alex_Ander



Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 57
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"No, I don't."

Do you?
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Cool Teacher



Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 891
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pitarou wrote:
Cool Teacher wrote:
Pitarou wrote:
G Cthulhu wrote:
In what sense do you mean "wrong"? Are you saying that the second option is somehow incomprehensible or outside normal use between the users concerned? As far as I'm concerned, that's the only test of "correctness."


I mean that it's outside of normal usage. That is the sense of the original question, is it not?


Hmmmm....I would have to check that as I don't know this is true. Confused

Go ahead. Knock yourself out.

Quote:
Quote:
Proficient speakers of English give answers that match the form of the question. They do not give "have" answers to "do" questions.


Are you sure? Wink

sigh I thought this thread died a natural death some time ago.

Of course there are exceptions to this rule, and of course there are dialects and historical forms that do things differently. But the original question was not asking about these more specialised areas. This was about basic, mainstream English.

And these days I'm a full-time student on top of my full-time-ish job, so I really don't have time to go into this any further.


Eh? It did die and now you bring it back from teh dead like Lazarus! Cool I posted that like six months ago nearly. I can't even remember the question but I think you might be wrong about the grammar. These days linguists use corpora to discover if something is right or wrong in grammar. Wink
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Pitarou



Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1014
Location: Narita, Japan

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool Teacher wrote:
Eh? It did die and now you bring it back from teh dead like Lazarus! Cool I posted that like six months ago nearly.

My apologies, Cool Teacher. A few people started posting here again, and I got confused. Can we just forget I said that?
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