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US School System Drives Students Mad?
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12903
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear wangdaning

Just where do you think most of the guns the cartels in Mexico use are coming from?

Regards,
John
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EFLeducator



Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

artemisia wrote:
So these days in America, you need to be fully armed (and preferably wearing your own bullet proof vest) when going to a movie, eating in a restaurant, doing a bit of shopping or attending a uni lecture? And everyone else needs to be, too?

Is this really some people's idea of a normal, sane life or are you having us on?


Better than what's going on in Mexico. The only ones that can legally have guns there are the corrupt police and military. Oh, and the gangs and cartels. Rolling Eyes

How's that working out for Mexico?? Here's a hint...it's NOT.

Can't really blame the school system as the title of this thread seems to think.
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EFLeducator



Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnslat wrote:
Dear wangdaning

Just where do you think most of the guns the cartels in Mexico use are coming from?

Regards,
John


Are you sure you're not Mexican, John? I ask because that sounds like something a Mexican would say. You know, blame another country or people for the problems they have and cannot solve on their own.

Just as the Americans can't blame their drug addictions on the Mexican cartels for bringing the drugs into the U.S., so Mexico cannot blame the violence that is happening in their country because of the guns coming in from the U.S.

Perhaps the school system in Mexico is to blame for the 100% lack of control their government has over their country??

You're welcome.

FAIR...& BALANCED.



Cool Cool
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12903
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear EFLeducator,

How about some documentation:

Report: Many weapons used by Mexican drug gangs originate in U.S.

A trio of Democratic U.S. senators called for tougher firearms laws and regulations after releasing a report that showed a large number of weapons used by Mexico drug gangs originate north of the border.

More than 70% of 29,284 firearms submitted to the U.S. Department of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives for tracing by the Mexican government during 2009 and 2010 originated in the United States, according to the report.

The report, released Monday, is the latest element in a debate over how large a role the United States plays in arming the ruthless Mexican drug cartels that are responsible for more than 34,000 killings since 2006.

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-06-14/us/mexico.guns_1_mexican-drug-drug-cartels-drug-gangs?_s=PM:US

Legal U.S. gun sales to Mexico arming cartels

Selling weapons to Mexico - where cartel violence is out of control - is controversial because so many guns fall into the wrong hands due to incompetence and corruption. The Mexican military recently reported nearly 9,000 police weapons "missing."

Yet the U.S. has approved the sale of more guns to Mexico in recent years than ever before through a program called "direct commercial sales." It's a program that some say is worse than the highly-criticized "Fast and Furious" gunrunning scandal, where U.S. agents allowed thousands of weapons to pass from the U.S. to Mexican drug cartels.

CBS News investigative correspondent Sharyl Attkisson discovered that the official tracking all those guns sold through "direct commercial sales" leaves something to be desired.

One weapon - an AR-15-type semi-automatic rifle - tells the story. In 2006, this same kind of rifle - tracked by serial number - is legally sold by a U.S. manufacturer to the Mexican military.

Three years later - it's found in a criminal stash in a region wracked by Mexican drug cartel violence.

That prompted a "sensitive" cable, uncovered by WikiLeaks, dated June 4, 2009, in which the U.S. State Department asked Mexico "how the AR-15" - meant only for the military or police - was "diverted" into criminal hands.

And, more importantly, where the other rifles from the same shipment went: "Please account for the current location of the 1,030 AR-15 type rifles," reads the cable.

There's no response in the record.

The problem of weapons legally sold to Mexico - then diverted to violent cartels - is becoming more urgent. That's because the U.S. has quietly authorized a massive escalation in the number of guns sold to Mexico through "direct commercial sales." It's a way foreign countries can acquire firearms faster and with less disclosure than going through the Pentagon.

Here's how it works: A foreign government fills out an application to buy weapons from private gun manufacturers in the U.S. Then the State Department decides whether to approve.

And it did approve 2,476 guns to be sold to Mexico in 2006. In 2009, that number was up nearly 10 times, to 18,709. The State Department has since stopped disclosing numbers of guns it approves, and wouldn't give CBS News figures for 2010 or 2011.

With Mexico in a virtual state of war with its cartels, nobody's tracking how many U.S. guns are ending up with the enemy.

"I think most Americans are aware that there's a problem in terms of the drug traffickers in Mexico, increases in violence," said Bill Hartung, an arms control advocate with the Arms and Security Project at the Center for International Policy. "I don't think they realize that we're sending so many guns there, and that some of them may be diverted to the very cartels that we're trying to get under control."

The State Department audits only a tiny sample - less than 1 percent of sales - but the results are disturbing: In 2009, more than a quarter (26 percent) of the guns sold to the region that includes Mexico were "diverted" into the wrong hands, or had other "unfavorable" results.

The National Shooting Sports Foundation's Larry Keane, who speaks for gun manufacturers, said he understands the potential for abuse.

"There have been 150,000 or more Mexican soldiers defect to go work for the cartels, and I think it's safe to assume that when they defect they take their firearms with them," Keane told CBS News.

But Keane said the sales help the U.S.

"These sales by the industry actually support U.S. national security interests," Keane told Attkisson. "If they didn't, the State Department wouldn't allow them."

"Do they need better oversight?" asked Attkisson.

"It's certainly for the State Department and the Mexican government to try to make sure that the cartels don't obtain firearms that way," he replied. "But that's really beyond the control of the industry."

Mexico is now one of the world's largest purchasers of U.S. guns through direct commercial sales, beating out countries like Iraq. The State Department office that oversees the sales wouldn't agree to an interview. But an official has told Congress their top priority is to advance national security and foreign policy.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500202_162-57337289/legal-u.s-gun-sales-to-mexico-arming-cartels/

And then there's this:

STUDY: GUNS DONíT KILL PEOPLE, ĎSTAND YOUR GROUNDí LAWS DO


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/study-guns-dont-kill-people-stand-your-ground-laws-do/

and here's the research:

http://econweb.tamu.edu/mhoekstra/castle_doctrine.pdfReport: Many weapons used by Mexican drug gangs originate in U.S.


Regards,
John
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EFLeducator



Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnslat wrote:
Dear EFLeducator,

How about some documentation:

Report: Many weapons used by Mexican drug gangs originate in U.S.

A trio of Democratic U.S. senators called for tougher firearms laws and regulations after releasing a report that showed a large number of weapons used by Mexico drug gangs originate north of the border.

More than 70% of 29,284 firearms submitted to the U.S. Department of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives for tracing by the Mexican government during 2009 and 2010 originated in the United States, according to the report.

The report, released Monday, is the latest element in a debate over how large a role the United States plays in arming the ruthless Mexican drug cartels that are responsible for more than 34,000 killings since 2006.

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-06-14/us/mexico.guns_1_mexican-drug-drug-cartels-drug-gangs?_s=PM:US

Legal U.S. gun sales to Mexico arming cartels

Selling weapons to Mexico - where cartel violence is out of control - is controversial because so many guns fall into the wrong hands due to incompetence and corruption. The Mexican military recently reported nearly 9,000 police weapons "missing."

Yet the U.S. has approved the sale of more guns to Mexico in recent years than ever before through a program called "direct commercial sales." It's a program that some say is worse than the highly-criticized "Fast and Furious" gunrunning scandal, where U.S. agents allowed thousands of weapons to pass from the U.S. to Mexican drug cartels.

CBS News investigative correspondent Sharyl Attkisson discovered that the official tracking all those guns sold through "direct commercial sales" leaves something to be desired.

One weapon - an AR-15-type semi-automatic rifle - tells the story. In 2006, this same kind of rifle - tracked by serial number - is legally sold by a U.S. manufacturer to the Mexican military.

Three years later - it's found in a criminal stash in a region wracked by Mexican drug cartel violence.

That prompted a "sensitive" cable, uncovered by WikiLeaks, dated June 4, 2009, in which the U.S. State Department asked Mexico "how the AR-15" - meant only for the military or police - was "diverted" into criminal hands.

And, more importantly, where the other rifles from the same shipment went: "Please account for the current location of the 1,030 AR-15 type rifles," reads the cable.

There's no response in the record.

The problem of weapons legally sold to Mexico - then diverted to violent cartels - is becoming more urgent. That's because the U.S. has quietly authorized a massive escalation in the number of guns sold to Mexico through "direct commercial sales." It's a way foreign countries can acquire firearms faster and with less disclosure than going through the Pentagon.

Here's how it works: A foreign government fills out an application to buy weapons from private gun manufacturers in the U.S. Then the State Department decides whether to approve.

And it did approve 2,476 guns to be sold to Mexico in 2006. In 2009, that number was up nearly 10 times, to 18,709. The State Department has since stopped disclosing numbers of guns it approves, and wouldn't give CBS News figures for 2010 or 2011.

With Mexico in a virtual state of war with its cartels, nobody's tracking how many U.S. guns are ending up with the enemy.

"I think most Americans are aware that there's a problem in terms of the drug traffickers in Mexico, increases in violence," said Bill Hartung, an arms control advocate with the Arms and Security Project at the Center for International Policy. "I don't think they realize that we're sending so many guns there, and that some of them may be diverted to the very cartels that we're trying to get under control."

The State Department audits only a tiny sample - less than 1 percent of sales - but the results are disturbing: In 2009, more than a quarter (26 percent) of the guns sold to the region that includes Mexico were "diverted" into the wrong hands, or had other "unfavorable" results.

The National Shooting Sports Foundation's Larry Keane, who speaks for gun manufacturers, said he understands the potential for abuse.

"There have been 150,000 or more Mexican soldiers defect to go work for the cartels, and I think it's safe to assume that when they defect they take their firearms with them," Keane told CBS News.

But Keane said the sales help the U.S.

"These sales by the industry actually support U.S. national security interests," Keane told Attkisson. "If they didn't, the State Department wouldn't allow them."

"Do they need better oversight?" asked Attkisson.

"It's certainly for the State Department and the Mexican government to try to make sure that the cartels don't obtain firearms that way," he replied. "But that's really beyond the control of the industry."

Mexico is now one of the world's largest purchasers of U.S. guns through direct commercial sales, beating out countries like Iraq. The State Department office that oversees the sales wouldn't agree to an interview. But an official has told Congress their top priority is to advance national security and foreign policy.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500202_162-57337289/legal-u.s-gun-sales-to-mexico-arming-cartels/

And then there's this:

STUDY: GUNS DONíT KILL PEOPLE, ĎSTAND YOUR GROUNDí LAWS DO


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/study-guns-dont-kill-people-stand-your-ground-laws-do/

and here's the research:

http://econweb.tamu.edu/mhoekstra/castle_doctrine.pdfReport: Many weapons used by Mexican drug gangs originate in U.S.


Regards,
John


Doesn't matter where the guns are coming from my fellow professional TEFLer. The cartels are not being FORCED to use them. They are people who would never work honestly and within the system anyways. Sorry amigo, but the Mexicans cannot blame the U.S. for their inability to solve their violence problem in their own country.

I know...it's a hard pill to swallow.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12903
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear EFLeducator,

"Are you sure you're not Mexican, John? I ask because that sounds like something a Mexican would say. You know, blame another country or people for the problems they have and cannot solve on their own."

No, I'm not Mexican.

"Doesn't matter where the guns are coming from . . "

Is that your fall-back position? I'm sure all the countries that supply drugs to the US market will be relieved that it doesn't matter where those drugs are coming from. Off the hook.

In fact, ANY drug supplier, in or out of country, hey - it doesn't matter.

Regards,
John
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 12495
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why ARE so many people addicted to illiegal drugs in the US - and inncreasingly in Europe, including my native Scotland ?
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12903
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear scot47,

Some of us have been addicted to legal drugs (well, not legal in Saudi Very Happy)

As a "friend of Bill," I know how easy and attractive addiction can be - at the start, anyway. But by the time it becomes hell, you're already hooked.

Regards,
John
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EFLeducator



Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scot47 wrote:
Why ARE so many people addicted to illiegal drugs in the US - and inncreasingly in Europe, including my native Scotland ?


Could be because of the what I call trashy mentality that has grown a lot in the U.S. I noticed it right away when I moved back last year. People just look like wastelands now.

In their dress and mentality. They don't seem to care about anything nor have much if any self respect.
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artemisia



Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 867
Location: the world

PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who knows what sets someone off on a shooting rampage. Some things these guys (I think they are always male) seem to have in common apart from a built-up supply of arms over a period of time, is a sense wanting of revenge against the world or their particular community. I don't know or recall details in all those cases but I don't think any of them were doing particularly well academically (or materially/socially?). They wanted to make others pay for some perceived sense of injustice being perpetrated against them.

Very few, if any, of these kinds of public assaults erupt spontaneously. Instead they're purposefully thought out, planned attacks that are usually designed to try and inflict maximum causalities. Thatís partly why people have very little chance other than running/hiding when suddenly confronted with such a situation. And most of us donít have the kind of military/police training needed to respond tactically when under attack.
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Steinmann



Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 254
Location: In the frozen north

PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scot47 wrote:
Easy access to guns is something that baffles many of us looking at the USA from afar. Weird.


Yeah - something in our constitution about our right to bear arms. It had to do with personal freedoms, a lesson learned having been under the tyranny of a monarch across the sea. There was a revolution. We won. We carry our guns. Even the psychos. It ain't perfect, but it's what we have.
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EFLeducator



Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS

PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steinmann wrote:
scot47 wrote:
Easy access to guns is something that baffles many of us looking at the USA from afar. Weird.


Yeah - something in our constitution about our right to bear arms. It had to do with personal freedoms, a lesson learned having been under the tyranny of a monarch across the sea. There was a revolution. We won. We carry our guns. Even the psychos. It ain't perfect, but it's what we have.


Damn! Preach on!!! Very Happy

RIGHT!!
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EFLeducator



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

artemisia wrote:
I don't think any of them were doing particularly well academically (or materially/socially?)


Not sure about his material/social life but academically? He was a Ph.D candidate. So he dropped out but no one knows why. Still, he was admitted to a Ph.D program.

I heard it was connected to the medical profession.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12903
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The part in quotes is taken from the Denver Post Neighbors Community Forum:

So, what's the necessity for owning an assault rifle with a 100 round magazine capacity? Hunting? That's not hunting; that's slaughter. Personal protection? from what: a charging rhino? Our own government: please see the highlighted portion below.


Wait, wait . . . I know why we need them. It's for when the flesh-eating aliens invade or the zombie apocalypse finally arrives.

Jeesh - NOW it makes sense.


"I could probably beat someone to death with a rolled up Sunday copy of the Denver Post if I wanted to, but you are ignoring the capability of the weapons used in this massacre. Yes.. anyone can kill anybody with their bare hands or a knife, or whatever... But you can't injure 71 and kill 12 in under 5 minutes with a Ginsu kitchen knife.. This would not have been possible without the firepower and, more importantly, the magazine capacity that this kid brought to bear on these citizens. Period. Yes bad people will kill.. It's the magnitude of the carnage that this equipment made possible that is the issue.

We always hear this same tired argument from the assault weapon advocates...
"What if the revolution comes??"... yeah OK...
If you think an assault rifle is going to help you if there is a revolution here in the States then you are kidding yourself. 2 words for you: Predator Drone. Good luck with that.
The days of armed revolution in first world nations are over.. sorry to break it to you buddy.
Your so out-gunned you can't even wrap your head around it. They have F-18's, and Tomahawks.. plus thanks to your cell phone, they know exactly where you are at all times.. You got an AR-15 and a pistol... You do the math. If The Gov wanted you vaporized, they could do it before you even knew you were in trouble. There will be no armed revolution in the US unless civilization as we know it falls. In that case you got bigger problems...


Second... I don't need an assault rifle to protect me during a riot or home invasion. I have a S&W .40 and a Mossberg 500 for that. I can pretty much tell you as soon as the 00 buck shot starts flying.. No one is hanging around to exchange fire. I don't need 90 rounds to hit my target. If someone does, then they should probably take up another hobby because they are not very good at shooting.

An assault rifle for home protection is not practical. It must be shoulder fired for accuracy which in a tight space like a hallway can be difficult. A short barreled shotgun is much more practical, requires less precise aim (which also makes it easy for my spouse to use in an emergency), and has all the stopping power you need at close quarters. It makes a very loud and scary noise which is a very good deterrent, plus ammo is readily available and the gun also serves a dual purpose for hunting turkeys.

There is absolutely no reason a "kid," for all intent and purposes, should be able to do a walk up purchase of an assault rifle, a 90 round magazine, buy 6,000 rounds of ammo on the internet, 2 large caliber hand guns, and a Remington 870. All in less than two months and not get flagged. If the kid was Muslim everyone would be screaming "How did this kid not end up on a watch list", but since he's a white boy from the burbs people will defend this type of reckless business practices. Like I said before: owning a gun is not just a right. It is a responsibility. My Dad taught me that, and I think the Gun Lobby could learn a thing or two from him.

I am in no way calling for the ban of assault weapons. I'm just asking a simple question.
Can't we sell these weapons in a more responsible way? So far all I'm hearing is people calling for an outright ban and other people saying there should be no regulation at all. Neither one of those solutions seems practical or fair. In the meantime we have another deranged kid from a middle class family who walked into a big box gun store and walked out with a weapon that allowed him to injure 71 people and kill 12 in less than 3 minutes.
In my opinion as a RESPONSIBLE GUN OWNER, he never should have had that kind of gun or magazine to begin with. If he was limited to a bolt action or semi automatic rifle with a regular (8-10 shot) magazine a lot more people would have survived this terrible tragedy."

http://neighbors.denverpost.com/viewtopic.php?p=2578720

Regards,
John
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Dedicated



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 762
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, there is near-unanimous agreement in Washington that the tragedy will do little to change gun laws. Activists on both sides agreed that neither Obama nor Mitt Romney would risk antagonising the powerful gun lobby in a presidential year. Many others noted that not even the assault on Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson last year has led to meaningful change.

Many in Colorado have been reminded by the tragedy of how little has been achieved in detecting the homicidal impulses of disaffected young men with easy access to heavy artillery. It was at Columbine High School, a few miles away in Littleton, that Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold killed 13 students and staff in 1999.

The massacre provoked a tightening of Colorado's screening procedures and laws regulating concealed weapons. But police acknowledged that Holmes had bought his guns legally and there was nothing to raise a red flag.

Everyone in America knows that a total ban on guns will never happen.
Here in the UK, we are stunned.
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