Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Has Aruto Debito left Japan for good?!
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Japan
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
G Cthulhu



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1343
Location: Way, way off course.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nagoyaguy wrote:
I used to sympathize with Debito a lot more than I do now. We are in the same boat, trying to raise kids bilingually and biculturally in Japan, etc.

However, that all changed when I dared to contradict the accepted wisdom on his blog. I was banned and labelled a "heartless dick". I was also accused of applying "poor social science" in my posts.

It told me a lot about how he conducts himself and how intolerant he is of any criticism. I understand why some people would want to take him down a few pegs.


He works hard at being his own worst enemy. :wink:
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cool Teacher



Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 920
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D

PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G Cthulhu wrote:
Nagoyaguy wrote:
I used to sympathize with Debito a lot more than I do now. We are in the same boat, trying to raise kids bilingually and biculturally in Japan, etc.

However, that all changed when I dared to contradict the accepted wisdom on his blog. I was banned and labelled a "heartless dick". I was also accused of applying "poor social science" in my posts.

It told me a lot about how he conducts himself and how intolerant he is of any criticism. I understand why some people would want to take him down a few pegs.


He works hard at being his own worst enemy. Wink


May be is it culture shock. It is difficut for some people to adapt to Japan and myabe Debito Arudo doesn't understand the Japanese way. Wink Cool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cool Teacher



Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 920
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D

PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pitarou wrote:
Debito formally renounced his American citizenship. Americans don't like that kid of thing. Roaming scholar, he may be, but I think he would face some hard questions if he attempted to settle in Hawai'i permanently.

While I'm on the subject, why does "tepido.org" exist? I mean, sure, he pisses some people off, but why this active campaign against him? What motivates these people?


Acutally is doesn't matter because he can still probely be American if he wants.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pitarou



Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1043
Location: Narita, Japan

PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G Cthulhu wrote:
Inflames wrote:
Debito didn't give up his citizenship to become Japanese - he gave it up several years after because of his own actions. The Japanese government didn't force him to (and, in fact, can't).


I was under the impression that Japan does, in fact, require surrender of previous citizenship in order to obtain Japanese citizenship. After all, they don't allow dual citizens & taking up Jpns citizenship is one of the few instances where they can follow up on that requirement.
Like much else in Japanese law, this is a grey area. My understanding is as follows:

While Japan does not formally accept dual nationality, it does not demand that Americans renounce their nationality before applying for Japanese citizenship. Presumably, the Bureau of Immigration does not want the headache of stateless failed citizenship applicants on Japanese soil.

After naturalization, while you are legally required to renounce your American citizenship, there appears to be no enforcement. I guess this is because, once you become a Japanese citizen, you are no longer the Immigration Department's problem, and the other branches of the government aren't interested. And anyway, how do you go about proving that you're not a US citizen?

Of course, if you're going to pull a trick like that you have to keep your head down. And there's the rub. Debito is not one for keeping his head down. I think Debito recognized that, sooner or later, his dual citizenship was going to be a problem for him. The crunch came when a pissed off US Embassy official asked him a few pointed questions about his nationality status.
mitsui wrote:
The thing is, he became a Japanese citizen so he can say what he wants.
I think it would be more accurate to say he renounced his American citizenship so he could say what he wanted.

(By the way, what I wrote about dual citizenship does not apply to every country. In particular, citizens of countries that have implemented Article 7 of the 1961 Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness must renounce their former citizenship before they apply to turn Japanese. If their application fails, they can get their old citizenship restored. The US is not a signatory to this convention, but Canada, Ireland, the UK, Australia, and New Zealand are.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rooster_2006



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pitarou wrote:
G Cthulhu wrote:
Inflames wrote:
Debito didn't give up his citizenship to become Japanese - he gave it up several years after because of his own actions. The Japanese government didn't force him to (and, in fact, can't).


I was under the impression that Japan does, in fact, require surrender of previous citizenship in order to obtain Japanese citizenship. After all, they don't allow dual citizens & taking up Jpns citizenship is one of the few instances where they can follow up on that requirement.
Like much else in Japanese law, this is a grey area. My understanding is as follows:

While Japan does not formally accept dual nationality, it does not demand that Americans renounce their nationality before applying for Japanese citizenship. Presumably, the Bureau of Immigration does not want the headache of stateless failed citizenship applicants on Japanese soil.

After naturalization, while you are legally required to renounce your American citizenship, there appears to be no enforcement. I guess this is because, once you become a Japanese citizen, you are no longer the Immigration Department's problem, and the other branches of the government aren't interested. And anyway, how do you go about proving that you're not a US citizen?
Simple. With this certificate issued when you renounce:
http://www.nostate.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/certificate-of-loss-of-nationality.jpg

Another piece of proof that you had not renounced your citizenship would be if you visited your home country and didn't have any stamps in your J-passport for it. Imagine coming back on a flight from LA and not having any stamps from the Department of Homeland Security... In the case of US citizens, we can't enter the US on a second passport legally (the stamps must go into our US passport), so at least for American-Japanese (illegal) dual citizens, this would be a problem.

In theory, a person could fly into Canada on the J passport and get the stamp from Canadian immigration, cross into the US, spend some time in the US (entering and exiting the US on the US passport), and then leaving through Canada (getting an exit stamp from Canada again). Then lie to the immigration officer at Narita and say "I only went to Canada. See? Here are my entry and exit stamps for Canada." However, I think that this has three problems:

1. On new biometric passports, information that we're not aware of might be stored in the chip that would give the (illegal) dual citizen away.

2. Even if the above worked, it would only work for three months. After that, the Canada cover would no longer work, because Japanese immigration would wonder how you were able to stay in Canada for more than three continuous months with only a tourist visa (that is, unless you were able to get some sort of long-term visa for Canada).

3. Even if #1 and #2 are successfully avoided, they could simply find your second passport in your luggage on a routine luggage search (of course, this could be circumvented by leaving your US passport in a safe place in Canada so as to avoid having to carry it in your luggage).

I am aware that there are perhaps thousands of Japanese-foreign dual citizens who secretly maintain both passports. However, they are A) taking a serious risk, and if investigated thoroughly, can (and sometimes do) get busted, and B) those dual citizens that do exist are usually Yamato Japanese, and therefore less likely to arouse suspicion at the airport than a Caucasian or black Japanese citizen.

Now, all this being said, I'm pretty sure someone could remain a US-Japanese dual citizen if he/she never left Japan. Most of the snags would occur at the airport. But what's the point in being a dual citizen if you never visit your home country?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pitarou



Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1043
Location: Narita, Japan

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rooster_2006 wrote:
Pitarou wrote:
And anyway, how do you go about proving that you're not a US citizen?
Simple. With this certificate issued when you renounce:
http://www.nostate.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/certificate-of-loss-of-nationality.jpg
I see. That simplifies matters.
Rooster_2006 wrote:
Now, all this being said, I'm pretty sure someone could remain a US-Japanese dual citizen if he/she never left Japan. Most of the snags would occur at the airport. But what's the point in being a dual citizen if you never visit your home country?

Well, from what you've said, it looks like there's no problem so long as you don't use your US passport to travel. That still leaves you a with a few other residual benefits:
    * Citizenship rights for your kids (??)
    * Somewhere to run to when a nuclear power station blows up and the whole country is irradiated (just kidding folks!)
    * The right to pay US taxes Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rooster_2006



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pitarou wrote:
Rooster_2006 wrote:
Pitarou wrote:
And anyway, how do you go about proving that you're not a US citizen?
Simple. With this certificate issued when you renounce:
http://www.nostate.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/certificate-of-loss-of-nationality.jpg
I see. That simplifies matters.
Rooster_2006 wrote:
Now, all this being said, I'm pretty sure someone could remain a US-Japanese dual citizen if he/she never left Japan. Most of the snags would occur at the airport. But what's the point in being a dual citizen if you never visit your home country?

Well, from what you've said, it looks like there's no problem so long as you don't use your US passport to travel. That still leaves you a with a few other residual benefits:
    * Citizenship rights for your kids (??)
    * Somewhere to run to when a nuclear power station blows up and the whole country is irradiated (just kidding folks!)
    * The right to pay US taxes Wink
Yeah, basically.

Personally, I'd rather just keep my US passport and have Japanese PR and keep everything nice, simple, and legal. That seems like the optimal situation at this point in time. Too bad that PR takes twice as long to get (unless you're a top-tier professor, scientist, CEO, or something else "special" like that).

I can see why Debito naturalized, though. As an activist, he needed to make absolutely sure he could not be deported. The Japanese government simply cannot deport a naturalized citizen no matter how much they may hate him. They can throw him in jail, fine him, etc. but they can't actually get rid of him.

I wonder if he'll come back to Japan. I read his blog daily (it's the best source of breaking Japanese immigration news I can find) and honestly, it has become less and less about trying to eliminate discrimination, and more and more just bitching about Japan. He takes on all kinds of new issues like whaling, the government's response to Fukushima, etc. that don't really seem to have any direct relation to NJ civil rights/freedoms in Japan... I guess it's his blog so he can choose to write about what he wants, but I'm also entitled to my personal opinion about the direction his blog is going (less trying to help NJ by fighting discrimination, and more just Japan bashing)...

...it seems that in the past, Debito Arudo was trying to "fix" Japan and help NJ. He published a guide on how foreigners could live stably in Japan, wrote up many detailed documents about the naturalization process, acquiring real estate, etc. He launched a lawsuit with the goal to improve NJ rights (the Otaru Hot Springs Case)...

...but now, he has simply decided that Japan is "beyond repair." He's no longer trying to "fix" Japan -- he's just venting.

...so when I finally found out (several months ago) that he had moved to Hawaii, I thought "this was a long time coming."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cool Teacher



Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 920
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know what I think I think that anywhere one pays ones taxes onw is entitled to criticize and admonish and fingerwag and all the rest of it. Why not, eh? Wink Cool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Solar Strength



Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 560
Location: Bangkok, Thailand

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since he's Japanese, my guess is that he'll return to Japan.

But the question is, will he want to teach at a university again and, if so, who would be willing to hire him?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gonzarelli



Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 151
Location: trouble in the henhouse

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why should anyone care where he is or what he's doing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pitarou



Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1043
Location: Narita, Japan

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gonzarelli wrote:
Why should anyone care where he is or what he's doing?
Ask the people at tepido.org (the Debito hate-site).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Inflames



Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 418

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G Cthulhu wrote:
Inflames wrote:
Debito didn't give up his citizenship to become Japanese - he gave it up several years after because of his own actions. The Japanese government didn't force him to (and, in fact, can't).


I was under the impression that Japan does, in fact, require surrender of previous citizenship in order to obtain Japanese citizenship. After all, they don't allow dual citizens & taking up Jpns citizenship is one of the few instances where they can follow up on that requirement.


My understanding is that the US government essentially refuses to let someone renounce citizenship unless they have another citizenship.

The US tolerates dual citizenship as they can't do much about it - it is essentially impossible to lose US citizenship. Through many years of court cases, pretty much the only way to lose US citizenship is through a declaration to the US government - declarations to anyone else have no value.

Interestingly enough, the US is actually fairly strict when it comes to dual citizenship. The government's position is that, until someone officially renounces their citizenship at a consulate or embassy abroad they are only an American and the other passport has no meaning.

G Cthulhu wrote:
Inflames wrote:
The US doesn't prohibit "political discussions" by foreigners.


Actually it does. But like Japan, it doesn't enforce the laws very often. It was made very plain to me by USCIS that any form of political activity in the US while a PR would result in my PR being cancelled and my being deported. Moreover, the Military Commissions Act allows for the indefinite detention without charge for any non-citizen that engages in political activity in the US against their visa status.


Sorry I didn't respond to this earlier as I must have missed it.

This is blatantly incorrect, and the only government page on the first page of search results from when I searched for "foreigners eletion contributions america" showed as much. Actually, noncitizen permanent residents of the US can do everything except vote. People on ordinary work visas can volunteer for campaigns. The right to engage in political discussions is guaranteed for everyone in the US - you must have been confusing the US with China or North Korea.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rooster_2006



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inflames wrote:
G Cthulhu wrote:
Inflames wrote:
The US doesn't prohibit "political discussions" by foreigners.


Actually it does. But like Japan, it doesn't enforce the laws very often. It was made very plain to me by USCIS that any form of political activity in the US while a PR would result in my PR being cancelled and my being deported. Moreover, the Military Commissions Act allows for the indefinite detention without charge for any non-citizen that engages in political activity in the US against their visa status.


Sorry I didn't respond to this earlier as I must have missed it.

This is blatantly incorrect, and the only government page on the first page of search results from when I searched for "foreigners election contributions america" showed as much. Actually, noncitizen permanent residents of the US can do everything except vote. People on ordinary work visas can volunteer for campaigns. The right to engage in political discussions is guaranteed for everyone in the US - you must have been confusing the US with China or North Korea.
Good post, Inflames.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
G Cthulhu



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1343
Location: Way, way off course.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rooster_2006 wrote:
Inflames wrote:
G Cthulhu wrote:
Inflames wrote:
The US doesn't prohibit "political discussions" by foreigners.


Actually it does. But like Japan, it doesn't enforce the laws very often. It was made very plain to me by USCIS that any form of political activity in the US while a PR would result in my PR being cancelled and my being deported. Moreover, the Military Commissions Act allows for the indefinite detention without charge for any non-citizen that engages in political activity in the US against their visa status.


Sorry I didn't respond to this earlier as I must have missed it.

This is blatantly incorrect, and the only government page on the first page of search results from when I searched for "foreigners election contributions america" showed as much. Actually, noncitizen permanent residents of the US can do everything except vote. People on ordinary work visas can volunteer for campaigns. The right to engage in political discussions is guaranteed for everyone in the US - you must have been confusing the US with China or North Korea.

Good post, Inflames.


I particularly liked the way he said that my related personal experience was "incorrect" and how the random search term he used which wasn't part of the conversation somehow counted as "proof". BUt hey, don't let coherent and rational discussion norms get in the way of a chance to make yourself feel better by trying to "pile on", rooster. Rolling Eyes
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Japan All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2011 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Road2Spain - TEFL and Spanish with one year student visa
EBC